Failure at Messines 1917

[Gus1914]

16 minutes ago, JeffMcN said:

 I am curious to see your war diary data to compare with these (and without presuming which set is right!!)

 

Hello again Jeff... The numbers are similar...!

[JeffMcN]

13 minutes ago, DarrellDuthie said:

Yes. Your point is well taken. Don't think the contribution was to the creeping barrage as too many variables were involved, more likely the static bombardment of a trench, or counter-battery work.  However from Lens I don't think you'd have needed more than 2 days to reach the Salient. In other words, the delay between Messines and the next phase was not so much a result of logistical as other (command) issues.

I don't think we are too far apart, actually! Targeting a specific position would be a fairly straightforward business. My research is on Messines, which I use to calibrate my thinking. In their personal diaries there, some Germans noted how quickly their mobile field artillery was being accurately targeted once spotted by aircraft. Also a 116th Battery, Royal Garrison Art. commander's diary tells that his guns would come down on an identified gun position within 15 minutes of being sent an aeroplane wireless N.F. (now firing) call. But he was working on pre-identified positions (not all occupied, hence the need for the NF).

 

It is 50km from Lens to Ypres, which to my mind is more like 21/2 - 3 days travel time but anyway...
 

We could do some rough estimates: say 36 hours to break down the heavy guns and get ready to transport, 72 hours to travel, 36 hours to set up and 48 hours more for good luck and anything else I hadn't thought of which approximates to around a week at most to have moved from being in position at Lens to being ready to go at Ypres. Too late to get to Gheluvelt ridge for an immediate advance after 7 June, but eight weeks before Gough's Pilckem. It wasn't logistics that held up the follow-up to Messines.

[JeffMcN]

5 minutes ago, Gus1914 said:

Hello again Jeff... The numbers are similar...!

Thanks. The difference is primarily 200 more field artillery (18pdr, 4.5 How).

What is your data source, out of interest?

 

[Gus1914]

1 minute ago, JeffMcN said:

What is your data source, out of interest?

 

 

NA WO 95/14/3

 

I agree that the delay wasn't logistics. I was reading an internet post where a person was trying to convince others of the traffic jams around Ypres in the period of Messines and Third Ypres due to the movement of men and equipment.  That movement wasn't across the board, a "movement" was found where a Division and its equipment was in Second Army at 11:59:59 and 1 second later it was in exactly the same location in the line but now in Fifth Army.