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Remembered Today:

Who was Charles Patrick Anderson DCM , murdered Ireland 1921


corisande

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On 27/02/2021 at 21:26, corisande said:

His family believe that this is a photo of him . This small one is only one published , so nothing better is available. Can anyone say what uniform he is wearing?

anderson.jpg.ba32553b5a9d00e6f41c78fc026a3ff6.jpg

It has all the appearances of a pre-1902, 7-button full dress scarlet tunic for an English/Welsh infantry regiment without Royal appellation.  Jam-pot cuffs and collar in white, matching the piping down the front edge.  His undress headdress is a typical plain field service cap adopted circa 1894 and phased out around 1902 apart from in India, some associated territories, and Canada.  As he later joined a KLR Garrison Battalion it suggests he was an older or less physically able man so the photo very likely dates to previous service around the turn of the century.  It wasn’t at all unusual for Irishmen/men with Irish origins to serve in other than Irish regiments, in fact some adventurer types preferred to do so. At the time of the photo the good conduct badge (at least one) suggests he already had 2 to 3 years of blemish free regular service.  The fact that he was from Manchester suggests that he might also have been in the Manchester Regiment, which was among those with white facings and so fits with the uniform in the photo.

 

The Nagpur Volunteer Rifles was a volunteer auxiliary regiment formed in December 1860. In 1904 the unit absorbed the Berar Volunteer Rifle Corps. It was renamed the 2nd Nagpur Rifles on 1 April 1917.  These entirely voluntary units were made up from Europeans and middle class Anglo-Indians who worked on the railways or as civil servants.  They were the Indian equivalent of the Volunteer Force in Britain.  
 

The scenario suggested (albeit it might be contrived) is that Anderson completed short service with a British line regiment, probably time expired in India and then remaining there, perhaps working on the railway and joining the volunteers, where as an ex regular he would probably have been seen as useful.  Presumably he returned home during WW1 and as an older man ended up initially with the London Regiment (TF) and subsequently a Garrison Battalion. As his volunteer unit in India was styled as Rifles (see insignia below) it’s unlikely that he would have worn a scarlet tunic, and records indicate that by the turn of the century the unit was in khaki drill (probably with black buttons) anyway.

 

NB.  The problem of course is as you’ve said one of whether his background is real and his name not assumed.  There’s also the possibility the photo isn’t him.  He is less likely to have earned a DCM with a garrison battalion, so was it with the London Regiment?  Alternatively it suggests he earned it while a redcoat during an earlier/earliest enlistment.  As a high honour for an other rank (second only to the VC) the citation should survive?


 

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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 The problem of course is as you’ve said one of whether his background is real and his name his own.  There’s also the possibility the photo isn’t him.

 

Thank you for your input. I am always amazed at the depth of your knowledge on uniforms

 

Yes that thought is somewhere between a probability and a possibility. But although the stuff the (closeish) family have on Ancestry is rubbish pre 1915, I think they almost certainly did have this photo passed down. But it could just be another family member ascribed to him

 

Whilst it is difficult to believe anything he said about himself, I feel that he must either have been in Nugpur Rifles (or known someone who was), to have written this (obscure) regiment on his attestation form

 

As I have said, the fact that I cannot get anything on him pre-1915 might be that he had always lived in India (or it might be an alias

 

It is odd that there is no report of a burial in England (or records). When a decorated, married war veteran was gunned down in Ireland there was usually a full military funeral, reported in the local press.

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1 minute ago, corisande said:

 

Thank you for your input. I am always amazed at the depth of your knowledge on uniforms

 

Yes that thought is somewhere between a probability and a possibility. But although the stuff the (closeish) family have on Ancestry is rubbish pre 1915, I think they almost certainly did have this photo passed down. But it could just be another family member ascribed to him

 

Whilst it is difficult to believe anything he said about himself, I feel that he must either have been in Nugpur Rifles (or known someone who was), to have written this (obscure) regiment on his attestation form

 

As I have said, the fact that I cannot get anything on him pre-1915 might be that he had always lived in India (or it might be an alias

 

It is odd that there is no report of a burial in England (or records). When a decorated, married war veteran was gunned down in Ireland there was usually a full military funeral, reported in the local press.

In respect of the Indian service I thought the same. It's too obscure to be entirely made up I think.

 

Craig

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It might be worth a look around the 1891 census to see if you can pick up any military service. An 1870 ish date of birth should, on usual entitlement at 18, land a man in the army in 1891.

 

Craig

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Where is Anderson’s DCM citation, or is that decoration spurious?  I recall a book of winners citations being published pre Internet.  It would be worth seeking a Victorian era military record for his name associated with Manchester.  The uniform in the photo would fit for a Militia battalion of a white faced regiment too and as I understand it these are recorded in County muster rolls.  Someone like @PRC might be able to assist with tracking him, although there are a lot of variables with the dates.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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His death certificate gives him as 41 in 1921 (born c.1879/80) whereas 2 army documents give his year of birth as 1871 and (the next page) aged 49 in March 1919 (born 1869/70). That is a 10 year range in documented ages! Perhaps KLR clerical errors?

 

Yes, his dob is all over the place, but that was common in that era, when men pretended to be older to enlist, the to be younger to get back in for WW1. I am happy that it is the same chap all the way through

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An 1870 ish date of birth should, on usual entitlement at 18, land a man in the army in 1891.

 

I think his dob is closer to 1880, which would mean that his  declared 6 years with Nagpur rifles could have been 1898 to 1904

 

Am I correct in saying that he would have had to have left the Nagpur Rifles by 1904 ?

Edited by corisande
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4 minutes ago, corisande said:

An 1870 ish date of birth should, on usual entitlement at 18, land a man in the army in 1891.

 

I think his dob is closer to 1880, which would mean that his  declared 6 years with Nagpur rifles could have been 1898 to 1904

 

Am I correct in saying that he would have had to have left the Nagpur Rifles by 2004 ?

The unit title changed in 1904.  To me the scenario suggests militia or regular first, then India and Nagpur Volunteer Rifles, then home for WW1.  If he was in India for some time it would explain his absence in British records at home.  I’m puzzled why more isn’t being pursued concerning the DCM?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Where is Anderson’s DCM citation, or is that decoration spurious?

 

You are as dubious as I am :-)

 

But that is 100% genuine. I have found it in LG and it is his Service Record and I have the Medal Card on his page

 

 

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The unit title changed in 1904.

Oops, thanks, I have corrected that

 

So he could not have been with them after 1904 ?

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22 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

You are as dubious as I am :-)

 

But that is 100% genuine. I have found it in LG and it is his Service Record and I have the Medal Card on his page

 

 

Oops, thanks, I have corrected that

 

So he could not have been with them after 1904 ?

It seems unlikely unless he mixed up unit titles when completing his form.

 

Ive seen the DCM citation now, which I missed earlier (apologies).  The fact that he was a CSM with the London Regt fairly early in the war at the very least implies that his military knowledge was already notably good, which would fit with earlier service above and beyond the Nagpur Rifles.  Earlier Militia service is a possibility, not just earlier regular service.  He might then have gone on to India as a civilian rather than as a soldier.  The footprint he left behind would vary accordingly (I hope that makes sense).

 

Afternote:  I’ve just recalled that as auxiliaries, service with the Militia did not attract good conduct badges (inverted cuff stripes), so if the photo is him then he was a scarlet clad regular between 1894-1902 going by his dress and appearance. Serving in India followed by discharging there would then fit with the subsequent service with Nagpur Rifles.  It doesn’t chime though, for why would he mention service with Nagpur Rifles but not service with a regular infantry regiment?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Where is Anderson’s DCM citation, or is that decoration spurious?  I recall a book of winners citations being published pre Internet.  It would be worth seeking a Victorian era military record for his name associated with Manchester.  The uniform in the photo would fit for a Militia battalion of a white faced regiment too and as I understand it these are recorded in County muster rolls.  Someone like @PRC might be able to assist with tracking him, although there are a lot of variables with the dates.

Hi All

Apologies if this has been covered, just picked up the thread.

The letter trying to trace Anderson has the wrong service number ie. 481890 should be 451890 CSM  C Anderson (Banstead) London Regt.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1913/images/31825_217834-01308?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.208138834.1178756952.1614505544-375430043.1602265084&pId=13363 DCM Citation....searching

Regards Barry

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If I look at his service record,

 

1915 Dec enlisted

1916 Mar.  he went out to Cairo

1916 Apr Posted Kubri

1917 Feb Posted Canal

1918 Mar 31 Posted Kantara

1918 Jun reclassified Medical B1

1918 Jul. Transferred to 1st Garrison KLR in Alexandria

1918 Jul Seems to be transferred to DAG the day after he was transferred to KLR?

anderson.jpg.4c562db9d5cacfa28d3982f8056b23dc.jpg

1919 Apr disembodied

1919 Apr married in Dorset !

 

Can anyone enlighten me on Kubri ? 

Was that an active service area?

 

His appointment as CSM at DAG. would that fit with him having been a Bandmaster with KLR. What qualifications did a man need to be a bandmaster, and did he have them?. He seems to have gone on to be a bandmaster in RIC

bandmaster.jpg

 

 

Odd thing on his  personal life is that Miss Broadhurst has come in as his NOK (instead of his brother) between 1915 enlistment and 1919 disembodiment. But he married Miss Wright in Apr 1919 immediately on his return to UK

 

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19 minutes ago, corisande said:

If I look at his service record,

 

1915 Dec enlisted

1916 Mar.  he went out to Cairo

1916 Apr Posted Kubri

1917 Feb Posted Canal

1918 Mar 31 Posted Kantara

1918 Jun reclassified Medical B1

1918 Jul. Transferred to 1st Garrison KLR in Alexandria

1918 Jul Seems to be transferred to DAG the day after he was transferred to KLR?

anderson.jpg.4c562db9d5cacfa28d3982f8056b23dc.jpg

1919 Apr disembodied

1919 Apr married in Dorset !

 

Can anyone enlighten me on Kubri ? 

Was that an active service area?

 

His appointment as CSM at DAG. would that fit with him having been a Bandmaster with KLR. What qualifications did a man need to be a bandmaster, and did he have them?. He seems to have gone on to be a bandmaster in RIC

bandmaster.jpg

 

 

Odd thing on his  personal life is that Miss Broadhurst has come in as his NOK (instead of his brother) between 1915 enlistment and 1919 disembodiment. But he married Miss Wright in Apr 1919 immediately on his return to UK

 

 Territorial bandmasters did not need to have Kneller Hall certificates at that time, and for that reason were not graded as warrant officers, as they would have been in regular regiments, as regular army musicians.  Instead they had to be competent with a range of instruments (brass, woodwind, percussion, etc.), have demonstrated clear musical aptitude, and be recommended by a commanding officer, or equivalent.  In many cases former bandsmen or musicians with properly documented experience were often appointed to auxiliary units, not least because demand far exceeded supply during WW1.  It seems entirely feasible (albeit speculation) that he was picked specifically for the musical role at DAG and that KLR was a cap badge of convenience.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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El Kubri was the main British base at the southern end of the Suez Canal- just above Suez.  There are some quite good pictures of various units available through Google- such as from the AWM. Plenty of Australians and New Zealanders there as well

 

   Map below reproduced with thanks to the Victoria University of Wellington

 

image.png.64086877fdcdd7734cf096739e47d116.png

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El Kubri was the main British base at the southern end of the Suez Canal- just above Suez.

 

Thank you very much.

 

So I am now struggling to see where he would have actually won his DCM. It involved reconnaissance and conspicuous gallantry

 

dcm2.jpgdcm.jpg

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I have found a web site for 1/11 London Regt with transcripts of War Diaries

 

https://friendsofim.com/category/projects/away-from-the-western-front-from-islington-to-egypt-palestine-and-syria/finsbury-rifles-war-diary-egypt-palestine-and-syria/

 

So I can see what was happening with them

 

I see they were styled "Finsbury Rifles"

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Reasonable detail on here too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Rifles

His DCM may have been for the lead up to the capture of Jerusalem in December 1917.

If his DCM was for 'reconnaissance work' that would tie in with your suspicions regarding his undercover work in post-war Ireland?

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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26 minutes ago, corisande said:

I have found a web site for 1/11 London Regt with transcripts of War Diaries

 

https://friendsofim.com/category/projects/away-from-the-western-front-from-islington-to-egypt-palestine-and-syria/finsbury-rifles-war-diary-egypt-palestine-and-syria/

 

So I can see what was happening with them

 

I see they were styled "Finsbury Rifles"

Yes, it puzzled me that “Banstead” was referenced in his DCM citation rather than Finsbury Rifles.  I must have found the Islington Museum website around the same time as you, but the war diary entries it shows seem to only extend for a few days.  If the rest of the diary can be accessed it ought to be possible to find out what was going on during the days of the reconnaissance mentioned in the citation.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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We may have to wait for the re-opening of Kew, where I am quite happy to get the War Diary out and look.  My guess is that he won the award in the Gaza battles of late 1917-I believe the Finsbury Rifles were involved.

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We may have to wait for the re-opening of Kew, where I am quite happy to get the War Diary out and look

 

That's very kind, but I think that the site I linked has the Finsbury Rifles war diaries  back into 1917

https://friendsofim.com/category/projects/away-from-the-western-front-from-islington-to-egypt-palestine-and-syria/finsbury-rifles-war-diary-egypt-palestine-and-syria/

 

I guess there is the usual problem of not knowing the date of his action, only the LG date

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Yes, I have noted the Finsbury Rifles stuff with Islington-which seems to have stalled.  I have to look at the war diary anyway as I have a local casualty died  with them on Christmas Eve 1917  and buried at Ramleh. It's no trouble at all to look through for this man. By the way, there is a rather fuzzy pic. on the Islington site of 11th NCOs taken from War Illustrated-a bit too fuzzy to enlarge. But a good chance that we may also be able to get a pic. of him.

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3 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

That's very kind, but I think that the site I linked has the Finsbury Rifles war diaries  back into 1917

https://friendsofim.com/category/projects/away-from-the-western-front-from-islington-to-egypt-palestine-and-syria/finsbury-rifles-war-diary-egypt-palestine-and-syria/

 

I guess there is the usual problem of not knowing the date of his action, only the LG date

Formal reconnaissance of the kind implied by the citation was usually carried out prior to a battalion assault, or in the lead up to a general offensive.  In such circumstances there should be a clue in Brigade and Divisional war diaries, as well as in any general history of the campaign’s events.

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30 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Reasonable detail on here too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Rifles

His DCM may have been for the lead up to the capture of Jerusalem in December 1917.

If his DCM was for 'reconnaissance work' that would tie in with your suspicions regarding his undercover work in post-war Ireland?

 

Thanks. Interesting thought you have there on "reconnaissance work" outfitting him for what he may have done in Ireland

 

Also I struggle a bit with him being a "Bandmaster". I knew that bandsmen fought if (really) necessary, and sometimes acted as stretcher bearers. Were belligerent bandsmen the norm?

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His DCM citation states that it was for "several important reconnaissances...throughout the operations", implying that he went close to/behind enemy lines prior to several attacks? It was not therefore for an act of bravery during a specific action, like that for which Lance-Corporal John Alexander Christie of 11th Londons won the VC in December 1917.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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4 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Thanks. Interesting thought you have there on "reconnaissance work" outfitting him for what he may have done in Ireland

 

Also I struggle a bit with him being a "Bandmaster". I knew that bandsmen fought if (really) necessary, and sometimes acted as stretcher bearers. Were belligerent bandsmen the norm?

I think that “reconnaissance work on several occasions” relates more to conventional military operations rather than the more covert and individual work in Ireland.

 

Belligerent bandsmen were not at all the norm, no, especially during WW1.  Corps of drums, bugles, and pipes were separate and carried out normal frontline duties unlike the musicians of the unit band.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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