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Memorials on family headstones at home


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Padre Bill

Paul - yes, I've popped up in the St Helens area, covering the Newton area for the IWM register - where I came across a very rare Battlefield Cross. They're rare enough in our area, but I have not seen another on any site which bears the roundel of the 55th Division - They win or die who wear the Rose of Lancaster (pic. attached - note the framed photo below the cross of Capt. Collingwood's original marker on the Somme).

Re the Lusitania headstone in Southport - I posted about that before checking my data.... The father did not, as I stated, perish with his son. He survived - and perhaps erected the headstone after his wife's death in America. If you look up the name on Find A Grave (Howard Walter Tijou), you'll find my image, and more of the story.

Talking of 'out-of-area' commemorations - I've found men commemorated in different graveyards, on their parents' grave, on their grandparents', their in-laws', or widow's. In Atherton I found a man on his widow's grave and on his parents' - but with the surname spelled differently.

DSC07419.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Padre Bill said:

Re the Lusitania headstone in Southport - I posted about that before checking my data.... The father did not, as I stated, perish with his son. He survived - and perhaps erected the headstone after his wife's death in America. If you look up the name on Find A Grave (Howard Walter Tijou), you'll find my image, and more of the story.

 

Cheers, found your photo and also the burial record. The only burial in that grave is Raymond Trevor Tijou who died age 18 months in 1918. Section 15 grave number 677 at Duke Street Cemetery, I'll look out for it next time I'm there.

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BereniceUK

This one's not a WW1 commemoration, but it's one I've never come across anywhere else. Has anyone seen anything similar? The parents remembered their son who died in South Africa in 1900, then someone else put a second, more-detailed, commemoration to him on the same gravestone.

 

116719947_3168071553311946_7567883529903333973_o.jpg.ca2ac93677ae5b838a3440e57022e776.jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm presently working my way through data provided to me by the Friends of Weaste Cemeteries relating to WW1 (and some earlier) commemorations. Both the Friends and myself have been foxed by a headstone in the form of a cross on a stepped base, which has a roundel carved into the shaft of the cross. The roundel has what appears to be an adhesive within it - and I reckon it's the size of a 'Death Penny'. There's another grave at Weaste with one attached - and I've seen one before in Duke Street Southport - so it's not an unusual thing to do.

 

Around the roundel is the inscription 'Died in France 1917' - the family obviously expected the Penny to say the rest.

 

The grave is that of Richard and Hannah Young (both died pre-WW1) and their son, George Richard (died 1900), and daughter, Louisa (died 1927). Searches in the Census Returns show Richard and Hannah had another son, Walter, born 1878, who was a Stationer's Book-keeper, living at home, in 1911. 

 

Can anyone ascertain if Walter is likely to be the casualty - or suggest another candidate (a son-in-law, for instance)?

 

Image attached courtesy of the Friends of Weaste Cemeteries.

F  674.jpeg

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55 minutes ago, Padre Bill said:

I'm presently working my way through data provided to me by the Friends of Weaste Cemeteries relating to WW1 (and some earlier) commemorations. Both the Friends and myself have been foxed by a headstone in the form of a cross on a stepped base, which has a roundel carved into the shaft of the cross. The roundel has what appears to be an adhesive within it - and I reckon it's the size of a 'Death Penny'. There's another grave at Weaste with one attached - and I've seen one before in Duke Street Southport - so it's not an unusual thing to do.

 

Around the roundel is the inscription 'Died in France 1917' - the family obviously expected the Penny to say the rest.

 

The grave is that of Richard and Hannah Young (both died pre-WW1) and their son, George Richard (died 1900), and daughter, Louisa (died 1927). Searches in the Census Returns show Richard and Hannah had another son, Walter, born 1878, who was a Stationer's Book-keeper, living at home, in 1911. 

 

Can anyone ascertain if Walter is likely to be the casualty - or suggest another candidate (a son-in-law, for instance)?

 

Image attached courtesy of the Friends of Weaste Cemeteries.

F  674.jpeg

That is certainly a socket for a "Death Penny". I have seen quite e few and know of at least one still in situ (about which I am keping very quiet as there is a tendency for them to disappear).

 

I will see what I can find about the sons.

I think this may be Walter - but I think the age does not match:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/378610/W YOUNG/

He died  of wounds in the UK. (Soliders Died in the Great War)

RM

Edited by rolt968
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18 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

That is certainly a socket for a "Death Penny". I have seen quite e few and know of at least one still in situ (about which I am keping very quiet as there is a tendency for them to disappear).

 

I will see what I can find about the sons.

I think this may be Walter - but I think the age does not match:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/378610/W YOUNG/

He died  of wounds in the UK. (Soliders Died in the Great War)

RM

 Could he be grandson?

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Grandson is a possibility - however Walter and all three daughters were single and at home at 1911 Census - but perhaps a son of the deceased brother, George Richard....

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The Censuses from 1881 onwards shows Walter as born Winwick, Lancashire.

 

A check of Soldiers Died in the Great War for surname Young with a Winwick connection brings up one match - Sergeant 11143 Walter Young who died of wounds on the 15th July 1917 while serving in France & Flanders with the 15th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers. He was born Winwick, Lancs and enlisted Salford, Lancs - no place of residence details.

 

CWGC doesn't have an age or an additional information entry for him. He is buried in Wimereux Communal Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/85452/W YOUNG/

 

No obvious surviving service records.

No obvious Soldiers Will or Civil Probate for him.

 

He is only a candidate at this point, not a definate. Perhaps there is something on the Army Register of Soldiers Effects in terms of who the balance of his pay and his War Gratuity went to that might tie him in to his sisters.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

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RaySearching

Walter Young  Sgt 11143 L/F

 

The claimant of a dependants pension is listed as

Miss Louisa Hannah Young (sister)

38 Studley Road Pendelton Near Manchester

 

Edit a second pension card lists his sister Clara Young (aged 48)  of the same address above 

also a claimant of a dependants pension (no award made)

 

Edited by RaySearching
adding info
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I think you've solved it, folks. The sisters' names fit - Louisa's name is followed by H. on the grave inscription, and Dora appears on the Census returns. With both parents dead, he would be termed the Head of the household - so I suppose his sisters would be his dependents. Winwick was a small place in 1878 (still not that big), and there's only one Walter Young baptised at the church, in 1880, born 25/7/1878. The family obviously moved to Salford between the 1881 and 1891 Censuses - and there doesn't seem to be any other candidate.

Many thanks.

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  • 1 month later...
  • Admin

 

On 03/02/2021 at 01:33, PaulC78 said:

My understanding is that while the army provided a funeral they would typically bury a man in the place where he died, and if the family wanted the body returning home they would have to pay for it themselves. I may have that completely wrong though!

 

From the beginning of 1915 the War Office announced they would bear the cost of conveying the body  of a soldier who died in the UK home for burial.

Reported in the Scotsman January 1st 1915. Image from BNA on FMP (many other reports available).

 

Screenshot 2021-04-03 at 16.08.37.png

 

Prior to this date it was beyond the means of many, as noted in the announcement.  The bereaved may have been assisted in further expense by local societies etc.  These were Victorians death was ever present and many were laid to rest in paupers unmarked graves.  That the military would lay their loved one to rest and give them a 'Christian' burial near the hospital or other establishment where they died was often a blessing.

 

The controversy surrounding the 'equality of sacrifice' the watchword of the IWGC from the beginning is well documented and discussed in David Crane's excellent and accesible 'Empires of the Dead'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Empires-Dead-Vision-Creation-Graves/dp/0007456689

 

 

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clive_hughes

Interesting, Ken

I live not far from the site of a WW1 Army camp in North Wales, and the nearby churchyard has several headstones to soldiers from Glasgow, Devon, and Manchester.  A case of the families not wanting to incur expense?  Two have CWGC markers, but the Glaswegian's family preferred to pay for a stone of their own (though this may have been in the period before CWGC stones were supplied gratis).  

 

Nearer to my personal research field, an Aussie-born Australian Flying Corps ranker came over from France in 1918 for training as aircrew.  He didn't get very far at all, as he was going down with influenza and died in hospital at Aylesbury.  His body was claimed by relatives who lived on Anglesey, and transported and buried there.  His papers include a complete breakdown of funeral costs, even down to the coffin furnishings, and it appears as though the Australian military took care of that.  

 

Clive

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1 hour ago, clive_hughes said:

A case of the families not wanting to incur expense? 

It may have been the cost but I have previously posted on here the account of one of the military funerals here in Eastbourne where it was reported the soldier's parents travelled to the town, I can't recall from where, to attend the military funeral of their son. 

 

The Eastbourne (Ocklynge) Cemetery has 129 WW1 Commonwealth burials and many soldiers commemorated on family headstones and buried elsewhere. The Command Depot on the Downs maintained a band and the military funerals were conducted by way of a procession through the town accompanied by the band and a guard of honour before the soldier was laid to rest.  Such a send off would probably have been beyond the means of say, a mill worker from Halifax.  It's not recorded but but I suspect close relatives may even have been granted a rail warrant to attend.  The grave was marked by a cross.

I have always found the four Australians buried together particularly moving, indicating some thought as to the plots at some point

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/73148/EASTBOURNE (OCKLYNGE) CEMETERY/

(the fifth picture)

 Many CWGC headstones are scattered randomly in the cemetery, these probably reflect the large number of local men brought home and buried by the family and later granted a CWGC headstone though I hadn't thought about it before.

 

A hundred years on we can only speculate as to why some wanted their loved one close by, whilst others were content to let the Army make  the arrangements.  It may have been expense but there may also have been some bitterness and cynicism amongst the bereaved towards the military.

 

 

 

 

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Matlock1418
On 04/04/2021 at 07:45, clive_hughes said:

A case of the families not wanting to incur expense?

A death gratuity was later generally available for expenses.

 

1202631755_Widows-GratuityondeathHoggeGarsidep148-9.png.7cdef90f733631039f1a6272a252f904.png

From Hogge & Garside, War Pensions & Allowances

 

Exactly how well these gratuities/grants reflected costs to the next of kin I can't say but Andrea Hetherington in her book "British Widows of the First World War" has an interesting section, p.24-, on how original/early full mourning habits and dress were rather more subdued as the war progressed partly on the grounds of financial cost [and for alternative practical reasons too it would also seem - like aspiring and actual remarriage of a recent widow]

 

Pension cards at WFA/Fold3 very typically have a £5 death grant shown - though a range of increased payments is detectable, primarily after the war

3Pd.jpg.8a5587d3f850071dc58fc08f302b94f1.jpg

5Pd.jpg.d90ed3a48744088dcacfe4fcf1b03fe2.jpg

6Pd.jpg.dcce1ec9dbfabc4233a89d789ccde8d5.jpg 1 child's SA and 1 child's pension allowance claim shown

7Pd.jpg.8fc2961312b48909bce01e8ad171684c.jpg 2 children's SA and 2 children's pension allowance claim shown

8Pd.jpg.fb5691039deea9ddf24acf820b69287b.jpg 3 children's SA and 3 children's pension allowance claim shown

9Pd.jpg.acdb8cfae27496971663fd9e133bee44.jpg 4 children's SA shown [0 children's pension allowance claim shown on this particular card]

10Pd.jpg.bbb200faabba58ca484de4d5afb97592.jpg 5 children's SA and 5 children's pension allowance claim shown

11Pd.jpg.36a45b7737b4f0370391af99ff0d3d1c.jpg 6 children's SA and 6 children's pension allowance claim shown

 

Regardless of date of death it rather does look like by late 1918 and 1919 payments had become = £5 + (£1 x No. of children).

 

This is based on a quite small sample but seems demonstrable - early 1918 payments seen were still at £5, seeming a flat rate - but later, mid-1918 onward, other increased payments that fit this formula also seen.

From a number of cards viewed the period Aug-Sep 1918 seems to have been a period of transition towards higher payments.

In fact this additional 'child's increment' can be seen in action when a later correction was made between 1918/19

749397231_51Pd.jpg.ea9ab7fc7f07fef7cf1d010c88cade22.jpg 0 children's SA and 1 child's pension allowance claim shown

All images courtesy of WFA/Fold3

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
addition of further example of increased death grant
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  • 4 weeks later...
Padre Bill

A mystery from Weaste Cemetery - commemoration on a family grave of Reginald Ingham Clare, Killed in France, May 21st 1915, Aged 33 years. Trouble is - I cannot find him on CWGC... anyone any ideas, please?

Weaste - RI Clare.jpeg

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8859 Private Reginald Engham, Kings Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) is probably your man. Died 8 May 1915.

Martin

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Possible missed case, family notified they have a private headstone. Or date they were given could be confirmed or estimated date, amended later.

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Haven't looked into this in any great detail yet, but Mary Ellen & John were married in Warrington 1890.

The 1891 census puts them in Latchford, Cheshire.

Reginald is Mary Ellen's brother.

It looks like he is Reginald Engham, I assume that he was serving under that name.

He is commemorated by CWGC on the Menin Gate, and his name is inscribed on the family grave stone purely as a family remembrance.

It doesn't mean he is buried here.

 

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I think Martin and Dai are probably correct.

 

Baptism record for Reginald Ingham Clare at Christ Church, Latchford, gives his date of birth as Jan 1883 (baptised 14 Feb 1883) and names his parents as Arnold and Ann Clare.

 

1891 Census places the family at 20 Beatrice Street, Latchford, Warrington. In 1901 it looks like Reginald was a servant at the Eagle Hotel in Buxton. I couldn't find him in 1911 but only did a quick search.

 

A single pension card for Reginald Engham 8859 names his mother as Ann Engham of 77 Cross Street, Salford. The effects register gives the name of a sister, Mary E Snelson. 1911 Census for 77 Cross Street, Salford, shows it to be the home of John Snelson, his wife May Ellen Snelson and mother-in-law Ann Clare. This all ties in with the earlier census record for 1891.

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The following from the Salford War Memorials website:

"Private Reginald Ingham Clare, King's Own Royal Lancs. 77 Cross Lane. KIA France 08/05/1915 aged 31."
Martin

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Padre Bill

Thanks for the responses - some of these family commemorations do have errors (one for someone kia in France, 1919... instead of 16). Poor handwriting given to the stonemason.. or a slip of his chisel....

This one looks as if the CWGC record should be changed to record that Reginald Ingham Clare fought as Reginald Engham. What is the process for achieving that?

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He is commemorated as Reginald Engham by the CWGC, and as "Engham R" on the Menin Gate memorial.

Martin

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

His MIC shows  he was known to his regiment as Engham. Aso Died of wounds, so might explain the date discrepancy:

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000506-01614?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=20a663435ab6ec1f21229b13e05bdbbd&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ZsW71&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=23880

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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Another Weaste Cemetery query... inscription on the side step of the base to a cross: Also John & William Gleaves, Killed in France. The names on the front step are Jane E, beloved wife of Henry Swindells, Died Nov. 14th 1926, aged 63(?) years.

Not much to go on..., but that doesn't usually deter you....

Weaste - JW Gleaves - 1.jpeg

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How about:

Pte William GLEAVES 300647 8th Bn, Manchester Regiment

Pte. John GLEAVES 27332, Lancashire Fusiliers

??

Dependant/Mother: Mrs Jane Gleaves, 30 Arthur St, Pendleton, Salford

:-) M

 

Edit: that pairing is from pension cards at WFA/Fold3 - unfortunately their CWGCs don't confirm or give other family details.

Edited by Matlock1418
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