Matlock1418 Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said: has anyone else seen his FMP RFC/RAF record? 4 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: Rigger (Aero) 87557 Hyam Lazarus gives his NoK as his wife Bessie Lazarus of 52 Downs Park Road, Hackney. Marriage on 5th July 1916 in Whitechapel. I guess you have - any prior service showing? But now also a differing date of marriage from the LC soldier I think. ;-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: I guess you have - any prior service showing? and just to confuse... myself at least... (image source - FMP) Edited 19 January , 2021 by jay dubaya add image source... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, sadbrewer said: I think they are both called Hyam Lazarus ( or a misspelling of it it) Rather looks like it could be the case 51 minutes ago, sadbrewer said: RFC one married Bessie Kartowski. Hyman LAZARUS - Found that in Whitechapel marriage records July 1916 so looks like the case EDIT: Recent post of RFC/RAF mans record would confirm it :-) 51 minutes ago, sadbrewer said: the other married Beatrice Goodman Hyman LAZARUS LC Seems clear enough on the man's SR - Sarah Goodman 27.6.15 East London Synagogue EDIT: LC Service starting 10-5-1918 conflicts with the RFC service starting 30.6.1916. Looks like he, 557351, is the red-herring with 1001 LC, as previously suspected, if RFC/RAF man is the main target :-) M Edited 19 January , 2021 by Matlock1418 Edit & correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, GROBBY said: HYAM LAZARUS JOINED THE LABOUR CORPS ON 30/6/16 AND TRANSFERED TO THE RFC ON 22/5/17 From the RAF record above - 87557 - HYAM LAZARUS JOINED THE ARMY ON 30/6/16 AND TRANSFERED TO THE RFC ON 22/5/17 Army of course includes the RFC. It is possible he was not immediately mobilised - as a Cabinet maker he would have been a very good fit for an 2AM/AM2 Aero Rigger [dealing with wooden airframes, not engines], - not so clear as to why he might have been held back. Wouldn't seem to make sense to me. However, I would very strongly suspect he was already in the RFC before 22/7/17 - almost certainly doing his trade training before posting to a squadron. I can see your query, as it is recorded he was "Transferred 22/5/17", suggesting already serving somewhere in uniform - so can see why you are wondering where he might have been in the intervening period. So now seems back to the drawing board for us to find what we can, if any, about that period 30/6/16 to 22/5/17, perhaps rather than 1001 LC, if it is he, the RFC/RAF man, that is your prime target. And where was 37 Squadron to be joined on 22.5.17? [If Wiki is to be believed East Anglia] - so looking like Home Service until, including and likely after that date. We are hindered in that if Home Service then no MIC for earlier [or later] medals - and no suggestion of such on his RAF record [And no casualty card to help as apparently destroyed long ago as no entries - and I couldn't find one at the RAF Museum StoryVault!] And I fear RAF Muster Rolls won't help. Perhaps now seems as much/likely more a question for the Fliers [RFC & RAF] - 'War in the Air' here on GWF rather than us, Tommies, in this 'Soldiers' sub-forum. Good luck. ;-/ M Edited 19 January , 2021 by Matlock1418 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GROBBY Posted 19 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2021 . THE HYAM LAZARUS I AM AFTER MARRIED BESSIE KARTOWSKI 87557 AM/2 HYAM LAZARUS . WE KNOW HE WAS IN THE ARMY FOR ABOUT 11 MONTHS BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT OR WHERE HE WAS FOR THAT TIME .MY HYAM WAS BORN IN 1895 IN SEBASTOPOL SO IT LOOKS LIKE HE WASNT IN THE LABOUR CORPS .ALAS I DONT HAVE ANCESTRY ONLY FIND MY PAST SO HAVNT SEEN THAT ENTRY . THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GROBBY Posted 19 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2021 SORRY ALL I DIDNT SEE THE LAST POST . 37 SQDN WAS AT STOW MARIES /ROCHFORD AND GOLDHANGER ESSEX FROM 1916 BUT IT WAS THE TRANSFER DATE WHICH MADE ME THINK HE WAS IN THE ARMY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 20 January , 2021 Share Posted 20 January , 2021 One wonders if Hyam had initially enlisted with one of the Middlesex Alien Companies (30th and 31st Bns Middlesex Rgt), the first being raised around June 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 20 January , 2021 Share Posted 20 January , 2021 16 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: One wonders if Hyam had initially enlisted with one of the Middlesex Alien Companies (30th and 31st Bns Middlesex Rgt), the first being raised around June 1916. I guess it is always a possibility - but, as I suggested above, I personally think [without evidence!] it is probably more likely he joined the RFC in 1916 and did trade training to work on aircraft - otherwise would probably be a hard haul to join 35 Squadron without something technical built on his cabinet maker experience. Just my thinking at the moment. ??? :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GROBBY Posted 20 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2021 Hi all thank you for your hard work trying to sort this out .On page 2 of his service record he has no medals allowed so seems to have been home service only Army or RFC/RAF .Would you have a transfer date if you didnt transfer and were only RFC/RAF ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 20 January , 2021 Share Posted 20 January , 2021 35 minutes ago, GROBBY said: Would you have a transfer date if you didnt transfer and were only RFC/RAF ? His record is consistent with others that I've looked at, as part of my own particular research interest, which suggests that he had some form of "other" army service from 30/06/1916 prior to being transferred to the RFC on 22/05/1917. It's just determining who that previous service was with that appears to be the issue here...... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 20 January , 2021 Share Posted 20 January , 2021 58 minutes ago, SteveE said: His record is consistent with others that I've looked at, as part of my own particular research interest, which suggests that he had some form of "other" army service from 30/06/1916 prior to being transferred to the RFC on 22/05/1917. It's just determining who that previous service was with that appears to be the issue here...... We certainly agree fully about your last comment! However, I refer all back to his RFA/RAF record above. He is transferred to 35 Squadron as an AM2 - as the RFC had the lower rank of AM3 I think he must have spent some previous time in the RFC [and I think in trade training], even if he perhaps also had 'other' Army service prior to that. However then I found this: Shows the 30.6.16 joining date but again doesn't clarify with whom and that 22.5.17 transfer date again! And promotion date 22 May 1917 - I believe this is his last promotion date i.e. to RFC AM2 [which would have been from AM3] - I believe this represent his promotion on transfer from training to 35 Sqdn, or so it seems to me. And yet the image attached to this record reads: Details and Image from RAF StoryVault - with thanks And it shows that 22.5.17 transfer date again! ??? My thought on the 1.4.18 RAF Rolls/Addendum is that he reverted from RFC AM2 to RAF AM3 until he had passed his RAF Trade Test - see the Muster Roll abstract above & copied below (image source - FMP) A puzzle isn't it? And yet all this still doesn't solve what went on before 22.5.17 !!! ??? :-) M P.S. On 19/01/2021 at 17:26, jay dubaya said: and just to confuse... myself at least... (image source - FMP) fyi: RAF Museum have this chap as Harry LAZARUS 77455 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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