tootrock Posted 17 January , 2021 Share Posted 17 January , 2021 I am researching my wife's great-uncle, and I am puzzled by his MIC, as it does not show details of his entitlement to the British War Medal or Victory Medal, which he obviously must have qualified for, only his 1915 Star. And on the Medal and Award Roll he is ownly shown as having been awarded the 1915 Star. Also for some reason his details have been written in, whereas all others on the page are typewritten. His name was actually Henry Richard Clarke, but I know this is the same man, from family records. Does anyone have any explanation as to what is going on? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 17 January , 2021 Share Posted 17 January , 2021 Some people ended up with two Medal Index Cards - don't ask me why. The British War and Victory medals could be on a card made out for Henry Richard Clarke, H.R. Clarke or even H. Clark. It could take some time looking for the right one! aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 17 January , 2021 Share Posted 17 January , 2021 His roll entry is annotated Star Ret. By LC records. Therefore Labour Corps (Not on this MIC). His pair are on a LC roll under 150414 which shows on another MIC. He also has a Silver War Badge and a corresponding 'discharge type MIC'. Some call these SWB cards but they are not unique to SWB issues. So he has 3 MICs in fact. He's on another roll for the pair but crossed out as the medals were issued via LC. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 17 January , 2021 Share Posted 17 January , 2021 It looks as if the MGC entered him on their rolls for the Star and Pair. However, he was also on a LC roll for the same trio. NB there are two different dates for his entry to theatre of war, May 1915 and Aug 1915. #6970 Clarke on both cards. Interesting error compounded by the duplicate rolls. There are a few other #6970 Clarkes which may have caused some trouble or I wonder if 31/8/1915 is a date of transfer to MGC? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 18 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2021 I think we are talking about two different men here. According to an old family address book, under H. Clarke we have 6970, 3rd Middlesex Regiment, 28th Division, Machine Gun Section, Salonica Forces. I note from The Long, Long Trail that the 3rd Battalion went to Egypt and then Salonika. According to the Medal Roll for 6970 Henry Clarke, he was in the 29th Battalion According to TLLT the 29th (Works) Battalion transferred to the Labour Corps There seems to have been confusion at the time, and without further evidence we will never know the reason. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordercollie Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 I think it is likely to be the same man. We know that 150414 Clarke H Labour Corps enlisted in the Middlesex Regiment on 1/1/1915 but 29/Middlesex did not form until 18 months later. So what did he do in the meantime? I would suggest the following record of service based on available records with some extrapolation Enlisted Middlesex Regiment 1/1/1915 Joined 3/Middlesex in France either 10/5/1915 or 31/8/1915 Moved with the battalion to Egypt 25/10/1915 Then to Salonika 2/12/1915 Transferred to MGC on the formation of 80, 81 and 82 MG Coys in 27th Division 16/5/1916 Probably wounded and returned to England After treatment no longer fit for front line service and transferred to 29/Middlesex (an Infantry works Battalion formed in June 1916 from men who were not fit for front line service) Transferred to Labour Corps in April 1917 when 29/Middlesex became 5th Labour Battalion (the men transferred were given Labour Corps numbers in the range 149641-162640) Subsequently transferred to 589 Home Service Employment Company at Woolwich Discharged 22/11/1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 So a Harry Clarke (full name Henry Richard Clarke) #6970 Middlesex Regt. later MGC #56583. And Henry Clarke #6970 Middlesex Regt. later Labour Corps #150414. Enlisted 1/1/15 and discharged 22/11/18 sick. Both entitled to 15 Star & Pair. Different dates of entry to a theatre of war but both initially served in France. Your original MIC for MGC Harry links to the medal roll that incorrectly links him to the LC Henry. Pair roll for MGC 56583 Harry is crossed out and annotated Claimed on LC roll 650 which is the reference on LC Henry's MIC. I can't see a further pair roll for Harry which I'd expect to if these were two different men. No explanation regarding different dates of entry other than I think your original MIC was created off the back of his LC 1915 Star being returned. Still think Aug 1915 could be a date of transfer to MGC? Apologies for sort of cross-posting with Border collie. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 (edited) There are a couple of references on the WFA Pension Records. Details above are confirmed on MIC... Henry Clarke Middx R Pte 6970 Lab Corps 150414 10/5/15 Silver War Badge Number B196871 H. Clarke 589 H.S.E. Co. Ex Middsx Edited 18 January , 2021 by BarbaraG Added SWB refs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordercollie Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 The WFA Pension Record very helpfully includes all three numbers, although the MGC number appears to have been mis-transcribed as 56883. It also gives 92 Tatton Street Salford as the man's address. I think transcription error is also the most likely explanation for the discrepancy in the date of arrival in theatre. I don't think 31/8/1915 can be date of transfer to the MGC which wasn't created until October 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 As the 10/5/15 date is on the WFA cards then there must be 3 MICs and 4 roll entries for the one man. Hopefully the Salford connection is known. Taken it on board what is said about MGC dates and the Aug 15 date. The MGC records office must have got the 31/8/15 date from somewhere and muddled it with a date of entry? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 18 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2021 Thanks for all this research. I am rather surprised that a Salford address is given, as the (large) family came from Enfield in Middlesex. Are there any other names or details on the WFA Pension Record, which could help with further research into the family. I note that a Henry Richard Clarke who lived at the 92 Tatton Street address died in 1950. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bordercollie said: The WFA Pension Record very helpfully includes all three numbers, although the MGC number appears to have been mis-transcribed as 56883. It also gives 92 Tatton Street Salford as the man's address. It's the peculiar card that comes up as "Page 1" when you hunt under 150414 - the 56883 is on the card, so not a Fold3 mis-transcription 2 hours ago, tootrock said: Are there any other names or details on the WFA Pension Record, which could help with further research into the family. I note that a Henry Richard Clarke who lived at the 92 Tatton Street address died in 1950. Pension is made out in favour of his mother Edit/later correction: his widow Mary Agnes CLARKE at 92 Tatton St., Salford [c.1918/19 - and 1949 if the printer's marks on other cards are to be believed] :-) M Edit: forgot to add - a pension ledger for Henry CLARKE, 150414, LC b. 1886, shows a disability of DAH [Disordered Action of Heart I think] 30% due to service - got him 12/- a week, still conditional in 1920 so may have changed later Edited 18 January , 2021 by Matlock1418 add 1949 date and edit & correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 (edited) Complicated! Looks to me that Henry Richard Clarke born Epping, Essex was living in Enfield Wash in 1911 with his (large) family. Mother was Ellen. Then I've found a Mary Agnes Clarke in 1911 living in James Henry St. Salford which is a stone's throw from Tatton St. She does have a son 'Henry' but he would have been 10 in 1915. TEW Edited 18 January , 2021 by TEW Changed Harry to Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 18 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2021 Complicated indeed! I was writing this at the same time as TEW. The mother of the Henry Richard Clarke in my original post was called Ellen, and died in 1938. According to Probate records Mary Agnes Clarke was the widow of Henry Richard Clarke, living at 92 Tatton Street. I have asked a cousin of my wife whether she has any more details of the family. Watch this space! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said: Pension is made out in favour of his mother Mary Agnes CLARKE at 92 Tatton St., Salford 12 minutes ago, tootrock said: Mary Agnes Clarke was the widow of Henry Richard Clarke, living at 92 Tatton Street. Apologies, my error - can't explain why I put his mother = Mary Agnes - his widow [I'll also correct above] :-( M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 January , 2021 Share Posted 18 January , 2021 31 minutes ago, TEW said: Then I've found a Mary Agnes Clarke in 1911 living in James Henry St. Salford which is a stone's throw from Tatton St. She does have a son 'Henry' but he would have been 10 in 1915. TEW This Mary Agnes Clarke was the wife of James so probably a red-herring that just happened to have lived adjacent to Tatton St. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 19 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2021 Does the WFA Pension Card give the man's date of birth? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, tootrock said: Does the WFA Pension Card give the man's date of birth? 16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Edit: forgot to add - a pension ledger for Henry CLARKE, 150414, LC b. 1886, shows a disability of DAH [Disordered Action of Heart I think] 30% due to service - got him 12/- a week, still conditional in 1920 so may have changed later Just the year. :-) M Edited 19 January , 2021 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 19 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2021 16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Edit: forgot to add - a pension ledger for Henry CLARKE, 150414, LC b. 1886, shows a disability of DAH [Disordered Action of Heart I think] 30% due to service - got him 12/- a week, still conditional in 1920 so may have changed later Harry (Henry Richard) Clarke in my original post was born in 1889 so maybe not the same man! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, tootrock said: Harry (Henry Richard) Clarke in my original post was born in 1889 so maybe not the same man! As mentioned before by BC - three numbers on one this pension card including 150414 and the earlier 6970 & 56883 [sic?] - could perhaps be an old error or few??? Images courtesy of WFA/Fold3 - with thanks ??? :-) M EDIT: For consultation here is the other most significant 150414 record - the pension ledger for disability [DAH] Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3 - with thanks FURTHER EDIT: Widow, Mary Agnes's, claim card with all the previously recorded claim reference numbers - And its reverse with 1950 annotations Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3 - with thanks Edited 19 January , 2021 by Matlock1418 Added 2nd pension record and then the third Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 19 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2021 17 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Edit: forgot to add - a pension ledger for Henry CLARKE, 150414, LC b. 1886, shows a disability of DAH [Disordered Action of Heart I think] 30% due to service - got him 12/- a week, still conditional in 1920 so may have changed later Would it be possible to see this document to add to family records? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 Just now, tootrock said: Would it be possible to see this document to add to family records? See my previous post - which I later expanded! It's the 2nd, ledger, image. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 If the medal office & the pension office did make a massive error and turn two same named & numbered men from same original regiment into one person that means that one of them did not receive a trio of medals and did not try to claim them. Not impossible I suppose. I think you're going to have to find two records that show the two HRCs are different people. DOB difference of 3 years is a starter but not conclusive. Salford HRC is on 1939 register with Mary Agnes at King Edward St. Salford. This is adjacent to Tatton St. His DOB is down as 4/1/1889. I can't find Enfield HRC as yet in 1939 anyone else? Do you have anything else on Enfield HRC, should be a baptism available on ancestry, ditto marriage, death. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 19 January , 2021 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2021 10 minutes ago, TEW said: Salford HRC is on 1939 register with Mary Agnes at King Edward St. Salford. This is adjacent to Tatton St. His DOB is down as 4/1/1889. Although the scanned page gives his address as 92 King Edward Street, Salford, the search page giving his brief entry details has 92 Tatton Street at the top of the page. The next scanned page is definitely Tatton Street. I think the changeover from King Edward street to Tatton Street is obscured by the redacted information at Schedule 91/3. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 19 January , 2021 Share Posted 19 January , 2021 Ah!!! Salford HRC DOB is 4/1/1889. Ancestry birth & baptism records gives HRC born Epping, Essex a DOB of Jan 1889, baptised 20/2/1889, Father Thomas Oswald, Mother Ellen. I can't find a marriage date or location for HRC to Mary Agnes but It certainly looks like Enfield HRC moved to Salford TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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