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Evidence for identification: Sgt. David Kidd, 240147


rolt968
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These are extracts from the reburial documents related to Sgt David Kidd, 1/6 Black Watch.

His body seems to have been the only one listed on the page which was identfied.

Could someone please explain what evidence was used:

 

What was a death plaque in this context? (Why wasn't there one with the other bodies?)

 

Did the piece of boot have a serial number on it perhaps?

 

To what does the Efft/21503 refer?

 

Thank you

RM

 

Edited by rolt968
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  • rolt968 changed the title to Evidence for identification: Sgt. David Kidd, 240147

Although the report form records no cross on grave, it's likely that the 'burial plaque' somehow marked the grave, its presence may suggest he was buried by a French unit who kept some form of record.

Effx/21503 is the serial number which was attached to the bag which contained the effects recovered from the grave and were sent to London for identification, note the piece of boot sent has a '?' so it may have been a piece of leather equipment, whatever it was it was deemed to have marks that may have been identifiable but nothing is noted on the report form. It would appear there was at least one RH shoulder title which was identified at the time of exhumation during December 1927. There is no clear indication of what identified Sgt Kidd, perhaps the French recorded some further information in their records or perhaps removed a disc. 

It's interesting to see the name of Richard Stiles, this name appears on many UBS identifications during the late 1920s... sadly sometimes with glaring mistakes.

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8 hours ago, rolt968 said:

What was a death plaque in this context? (Why wasn't there one with the other bodies?)

 

Looking at the Concentration report there is only one individual listed. Is there any reason to believe there were others recovered from the same location - if not, may explain why he had something different.

 

He now lies in Bouilly Cross Roads Cemetery. The CWGC history of the cemetery records:-

 

After the Armistice all other nationalities were removed and the cemetery was used for the concentration of British graves from the surrounding area. Most of the casualties who are buried here fell in the Battle of the Marne (18th July-6th August, 1918). The following are the cemeteries from which British graves (all of soldiers from the United Kingdom) were removed to Bouilly Cross Roads Cemetery: COURTAGNON CHURCHYARD (Marne), where a British soldier from the 5th Devonshire Regiment was buried in July, 1918. LES VENTEAUX COMMUNAL CEMETERY (Marne), JONCHERY-SUR-VESLE which contained a British grave of May, 1918. MESGRIGNY FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERY (Aube), which contained the graves of ten British soldiers. NESLES-LA-GILBERDE where the grave of a British officer was removed from the grounds of the Chateau de la Fortelle. NOGENT L'ARTAUD COMMUNAL CEMETERY (Aisne) where one British soldier was buried in September, 1914. OISE-AISNE AMERICAN CEMETERY (Aisne), which contained two British burials of May and June, 1918. ST. GILLES CHURCHYARD (Marne), where an unknown British soldier was buried in May, 1918. TRIGNY CHURCHYARD (Marne), which contained the grave of one unknown British soldier.

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/34408/BOUILLY CROSS ROADS MILITARY CEMETERY/

 

If it was only one body relocated that suggests the only candidate is either the unknown British soldier buried in Trigny or potentially Les Venteaux, (no numbers stated).

 

According to this site, a piece that was presumably originally written in French, Trigny was still in German hands until the 1st October 1918. http://www.chenay51.fr/medias/files/3-the-second-battle-of-the-marne.pdf

 

So a single man at Trigny, would either be buried by the Germans or by French civilians in defiance of the German authorities is my best guess. Nothing obvious on the International Committee of the Red Cross website but reporting from the German side was getting very patchy by this stage of the war.

 

Apologies for any schoolboy errors,

 

Peter

 

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Thank you both.

 

That's all very useful.

 

The implications of his being the only name on the Concentration report had not occurred to me.

 

For some reason (which I can't explain) I had an idea about a burial plaque being something placed on top of the body when it was buried. I have no idea where that idea came from. However it would fit in with there being no cross and also secret burial by French civilians.

 

Can anyone make anything of the map reference?

RM

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Almost got lost... Pte 240800 David Kidd 1/6th Blackwatch KiA 28/07/1918...

 

The map reference is new to me, one report form has the cemetery at 4.K.77.42 which I don't recognise and another report form has 220.6 x 273.7 which I recognise as the Lambert system. I have the relevant map (Lambert) but I don't understand this reference and can't make it work, perhaps I can't see the wood for the trees... pun probably intended.

I can't exactly pinpoint the location of 5.K.56.70, but I can say that the location is somewhere in the Bois De Courton and may appear to be close to where the battalion were that day with the 14th French Division to their left.

Looking through the concentration reports for the rest of the cemetery it's clear that around a dozen sets of remains were recovered with similar map references from Bois De Courton between 1927 and 1933, all were recovered with 'burial plaques' and in one instance it is noted as a 'French registration plaque', almost all these plaques had serial numbers. Another is noted 'on this grave were found together six oval iron plates fixed on wire rods and numbered'  These six graves, all 7th Blackwatch, were recovered from Bois De Courton, Chaumuzy, 5.K.51.70 and re-interred at Bouilly Crossroads MC during August 1933.

 

Jon

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12 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Almost got lost... Pte 240800 David Kidd 1/6th Blackwatch KiA 28/07/1918...

 

The map reference is new to me, one report form has the cemetery at 4.K.77.42 which I don't recognise and another report form has 220.6 x 273.7 which I recognise as the Lambert system. I have the relevant map (Lambert) but I don't understand this reference and can't make it work, perhaps I can't see the wood for the trees... pun probably intended.

I can't exactly pinpoint the location of 5.K.56.70, but I can say that the location is somewhere in the Bois De Courton and may appear to be close to where the battalion were that day with the 14th French Division to their left.

Looking through the concentration reports for the rest of the cemetery it's clear that around a dozen sets of remains were recovered with similar map references from Bois De Courton between 1927 and 1933, all were recovered with 'burial plaques' and in one instance it is noted as a 'French registration plaque', almost all these plaques had serial numbers. Another is noted 'on this grave were found together six oval iron plates fixed on wire rods and numbered'  These six graves, all 7th Blackwatch, were recovered from Bois De Courton, Chaumuzy, 5.K.51.70 and re-interred at Bouilly Crossroads MC during August 1933.

 

Jon

Thank you again.

 

(With apologies, I am slightly relieved that the map reference means nothing to you either. I thought I should be able to work it out.)

 

I have just started to read up on 1/6 Black Watch in the Courton Forest in Wauchope.

 

Also thank you very much for the information about the French registration plaques. That is all new to me.

 

RM

Edited by rolt968
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After a little consultation regarding the original map reference I can now be a little more precise with the location. French map sheet Soissons 22 covers a large area but it has been possible to locate K.5.56.70 (it's a retanglular grid system). Using French map sheet Joncherry-sur-Vesle and the Lambert grid system, the location of the original burial site is approx. 198.6 x 267.6. I have illustrated this location with a red dot on the map below which was extracted from 153rd Infantry Bde WD and it would appear just infront of the forming up line the 6th BW used the day Sgt Kidd died.

 

1860042785_boisducourton.jpg.ae3d6b04084d6d48faf2ab411e7e1087.jpg

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