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Remembered Today:

94th (Yeomanry) Brigade - Who was Brigadier General A Symons?


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I wouldn't expect ordinarily to see the rank Brigadier General on a medal alongside a regimental designation, but will be greatly interested if someone can post an image of such an arrangement, as I remain open minded.  I say this because ranks above full colonel do not usually have direct regimental association (instead being designated 'late of').  The matter is further complicated by the fact that Brigadier General (and its RN equivalent) were not substantive ranks, but temporary appointments in command of a brigade.  Officers so designated either returned to full Colonel on cessation of their command, or were promoted to the next substantive rank, that of Major General.  After WW1 special dispensation had to be made so that officers who had held the appointment of Brigadier General in command of a formation could continue to refer to themselves as retired Generals, even though they never exceeded the substantive rank of Colonel.  For a period Brigadier General was abolished and replaced by Commandant, of which there were two types, one of them on the staff, the other in a minor command of some sort, often a training school.  Still serving Brigadier Generals continued to hold that rank, but were employed in the same roles as the Commandant until they were wasted out via retirement.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Andrew Upton
2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

...I wouldn't expect ordinarily to see the rank Brigadier General on a medal alongside a regimental designation, but will be greatly interested if someone can post an image of such an arrangement, as I remain open minded...

 

On 19/01/2021 at 15:07, Andrew Upton said:

 

Out of curiosity - the rules as applied to most people effectively have first rank/first regiment on the Star, but last rank/first regiment on the BWM/VM - which in the case of the latter can mean you end up with combinations the individual would never actually have held together. In the case of someone promoted to Brigadier General do they say whether his BWM/VM would still be impressed with the Hussars details, or something else?

 

 

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As I said, because of the peculiarities of how most BWM/VM pairs were named this exact impossible combination becomes a distinct possibility, which is why I asked the question. To the ordinary rank and file it generally manifests itself in medals named with a rank a stage or two above what they actually achieved in that regiment (eg Private Atkinson first becomes entitled to his BWM/VM serving with the Rifles before transferring to the Highlanders and only after that becoming promoted Sergeant - his pair end up inscribed with his rank as Sergeant but the regiment listed as Rifles). There are exceptions however (eg BWM/VM pairs to members of the RAF usually don't follow this rule, including my own great-grandfathers brothers - this appears to have been part of the process of the new branch carving out their separate identity), and it wouldn't surprise me to learn the medal stampers had a slightly different set of rules quietly implemented for the more senior ranks. 

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Yes I understood that aspect Andrew, but it’s a different point that I’m making.  Other ranks can change regiments, and show different ranks, just as you’ve explained. Regardless of their regiment they never leave that regimental level on a permanent basis. However, a Brigadier General, by virtue of his rank is not at regimental duty, he’s left it never to return.  He’s “late of the xxxxx regiment”.  Ergo it’s a complete contradiction to show that rank and his former regiment on a medal.  I’d just be interested to see a photo indicating that they actually breached that protocol.  Perhaps they did, but it would be extremely odd and I’m hoping that a medal collector might be able to show an example.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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  • 2 weeks later...
BullerTurner
On 18/01/2021 at 17:33, FROGSMILE said:

courageous and quick thinking would be for formation commanders

Or for members of their staff who wish to dispute the commander’s inten or opinions??  I once saw a charming Irish Guardsman cut intO tiny pieces by a futUre three star.  He had given the Guardsman two chances to be still but finally it was all too much.  Perhaps courageous, quick-thinking and circumspect is a better skill set?

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59 minutes ago, BullerTurner said:

Or for members of their staff who wish to dispute the commander’s inten or opinions??  I once saw a charming Irish Guardsman cut intO tiny pieces by a futUre three star.  He had given the Guardsman two chances to be still but finally it was all too much.  Perhaps courageous, quick-thinking and circumspect is a better skill set?

I wouldn’t want to conflate the over bloated PowerPoint obsessed headquarters staff and commanders of today with those of WW1.

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BullerTurner

Powerpoint? It’s Google Sheets/Slides these days, isn’t it?😉

 

I tend to agree.  When you think how many staff are in the G3 organisation of a modern division, compared to the Great War...let alone various random LOs, Project Officers...and extra watch keepers...

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21 hours ago, BullerTurner said:

Powerpoint? It’s Google Sheets/Slides these days, isn’t it?😉

 

I tend to agree.  When you think how many staff are in the G3 organisation of a modern division, compared to the Great War...let alone various random LOs, Project Officers...and extra watch keepers...

It’s all so skewed by NATO driven sensitivity concerning National representation and buggin’s turn.  As for google sheets, etc. I imagine that the information overload is unchanged whatever software is used to deliver it...

Edited by FROGSMILE
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BullerTurner
On 03/02/2021 at 17:57, FROGSMILE said:

As for google sheets, etc. I imagine that the information overload is unchanged whatever software is used to deliver it...

Plus ca change...

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34 minutes ago, BullerTurner said:

Plus ca change...

Indeed...

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