Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Help required - trying to solve family mystery and identify this soldier (Yorkshire connection)


pshelley

Recommended Posts

Ray,

Agree with your statements and questions, all crucial points.

 

As the family tree for Emily Currie has surfaced I'll just make a few observations.

 

She is a sibling to Joseph and child of James & Ada noted on previous censuses. She could I suppose turn out to be Emily Hannah Smith but I'm not convinced.

 

Emily Currie is the Mrs E Watson living at 30 The Green, Yeadon in 1919 (in the service record on ancestry) with sister Mary E L Currie. I hunted for a marriage between Watson/Currie 1911-1919 (Which tentatively could be the origin of the photo). No marriages found which I find odd, where and who was Mr Watson?

 

I did find a likely looking marriage of an Emily Currie, Wharfdale, 3rd Qtr. 1911 to Arthur Watkinson. But this would means that Mary got her sister's married surname wrong 8 years into the marriage!

TEW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we need some feedback from Pshelly

I think the identity of the soldier in the photo is crackable

even if it was necessary to research all the soldiers awarded the M.M on Mikes list

should be able to whittle the list down to a few possibility's 

 

This is one of those cases where the 1921 census would assist greatly

we may have to wait for the 1921 census's release to progress further

 

we are also hampered by the fact that women were not given the vote until 1918 so do not appear on any electoral rolls before then and then initially for those aged 30 or over 

 

My gut feeling is that the soldier in the photo is not Ronald's father 

but I am intrigued to his identity

 

Ray

 

     

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi All,

Here is a bit more history.....I still think the answer lies with this family....

We need to watch the spelling of Currie/Curry....

2.12.1887 James Curry or Currie aged 22 yrs was sentenced to 2mths. imp. for assault at Otley . HMP Wakefield. A Currier, 5'4" , Dk.Brown Hair, "cross and dot on tight arm", a Catholic.

1911 census at "Rose Cottage"..occ. Leather Currier. James Currie. wife Ada.

1891 census parents of Ada are John Simpson and Elizabeth (nee Lancaster) at "Wynmore Hill", a farmer , with daughter Ada CURRY and husband James, born Otley, a leather Currier. . Granddaughters  Mary E, 3 yrs. and "Baby Curry not named" aged 2 days. No doubt this is Emily Currie., and a Jane Simpson 7yrs, g/daughter. All g/children born Askwith.

Also present Levi Simpson aged 60yrs born Newel with Clifton. Farm Servant/Domestic.

1901 the Currie family at 3 Bradford Rd., Otley. Another child, daughter "R" Currie, aged 4 and son Joseph aged 6 both born Otley.

1901 census John Simpson, Ada's father is at "West Chevin" with his wife Elizabeth. The house is located on the census between "Westville" and "West Chevin Villas".

Is this going to be "Rose Cottage"?

1911 John Simpson a widower, gardener/nurseryman, is at Heath Nurseries, Moortown, Alwoodley, with his g/daughter Mary Elizabeth Currie (Ancestry indexed as "EURRIE"), aged 23 yrs, single his housekeeper.

John Simpson died 5th July, 1919 Wharfedale.9a, 138.

Searching,....1881 census James Currie, a Currier born Otley with his parents and siblings at 31 Nelson St., Otley. Parents Patrick and Catherine both born Ireland.

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

but I am intrigued to his identity

I am making a list of Leicestershire Regt soldiers awarded the MM, as you may realise there are a lot of men to go through. It seemed worthwhile when I started, to list all with some form of decoration from MM up. So that is going to take longer but will be a good list for others to use. Regards, Bob.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very sorry everyone.  I meant to post over the weekend but unfortunately my weekend got in the way... Life was a lot simpler when I started this thread at the beginning of the year. I really wasn’t prepared for how much time investigating the past can take (and how quickly the time goes when doing it). There are quite a few comments I need to respond to and I will so in time. However I should let you know there is some news and that is the DNA test result coming back.

 

There has been a match with someone else on the site of the testing company I used and we have managed to establish a link with a common ancestor. It’s not 100% certain, but there is a very high chance indeed that I am related to Joseph Currie. In fact, it seems he was my great grandfather.

 

I am humbled that I have been able to find out who my grandfathers father was. This was not a route that would have been open to my grandfather and it is a shame that he was born at a time when the technology was available to do what I have just done - through the searching of massive online database and consumer level DNA testing.
 

Of course, the outcome was pre-ordained. Joseph died in WW1 so my grandfather never had the chance to meet him (maybe he did before he was adopted but would not have remembered). This must have been avery common story I am sure for lots of families.

 

It is a shame that Joseph was killed at Plouvain and his was recorded as Missing. Even with the amazing technology we now have, we can’t locate the dead and that is one mystery that will probably never be solved.

 

On the plus side, we now have a whole side of the family we never knew existed.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi PBS/pshelley,

Fantastic news, I'm sure we can crack this one.  I think your DNA results will get even better as time goes on. Mine certainly have!

To find a common ancestor immediately is a plus. As your tree is private I understand you may not wish to share more up to date information about your grandfather's adoptive parents, if you have it, and yourself.

Personally I think it would help us to fill in a lot of gaps and may lead to other relations who have not taken a DNA test but have started a family tree. 

I have found a great deal of information about your ancestors which is obviously not for the GWF but from past experience it puts pieces into the jigsaw.

Here's hoping we can solve the puzzle.   Waiting to help.

Regards Barry

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is a fantastic result for you. Although we don't know if Joseph was living at Rose Cottage when Ronald's birth was registered we can't say for sure he didn't.

 

He was living in Menston when he attested in Nov 1915 but there's no reason that prevents any contact between Ronald and Joseph and possibly mother at least up to Nov 1915.

 

It suggests to me that mother had been at Rose Cottage for some time and simply returned 'home' after the birth.

 

TEW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been thinking Joseph looking like the most likely father. 

It  fits with Hannah Smith being "housewfe"-as earlier indicated (and as shown with the Simposons above) it was a general term for an unmarried woman in a house with an unmarried man (including relatives).

Now- who is Hannah :-)

If Joseph was working at the asylum it is possible so was she.  From my own researches into asylums of the time Domestic staff were generally local while nursing staff could come from all over the country- it would be good to find out a bit more about her as well- might also give clues to the soldier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, TEW said:

Ray,

Agree with your statements and questions, all crucial points.

 

As the family tree for Emily Currie has surfaced I'll just make a few observations.

 

She is a sibling to Joseph and child of James & Ada noted on previous censuses. She could I suppose turn out to be Emily Hannah Smith but I'm not convinced.

 

Emily Currie is the Mrs E Watson living at 30 The Green, Yeadon in 1919 (in the service record on ancestry) with sister Mary E L Currie. I hunted for a marriage between Watson/Currie 1911-1919 (Which tentatively could be the origin of the photo). No marriages found which I find odd, where and who was Mr Watson?

 

I did find a likely looking marriage of an Emily Currie, Wharfdale, 3rd Qtr. 1911 to Arthur Watkinson. But this would means that Mary got her sister's married surname wrong 8 years into the marriage!

TEW

There are no births to Watkinson Currie/Curry post 1911 . However there are four names on the page for marriages-one of the others is Lee- there are births for Watkinson -Lee post sep 1911 , the other groom on the page is Pullan- Harry W. A Harry W died aged 45 shortly afterwards and an Emily Pullan married a Sidney Marshall in 1913- there any possible trail runs cold- I haven;t found a death for Sidney to free Emily up to marry again nor a marriage for Marshall to Watson. It is , however , possible that Edith Currie married several times ending up with Watson by 1919. It is also completely possible that the name Watkinson was misheard/misremembered by someone along the way- whether the sibling (joseph surely not the sister) or the clerk filling in the form? However there are no children to the marriage so my bet is on her marrying Pullan (if this is indeed her)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 From Ray on about page 5

 

"Joseph enlisted on the 24th Nov 1915 his address given as the Menston? Asylum where he was employed

Josephs relatives are listed on his service documents as

 

Father and mother James and Ada Currie of 3 Chevin Side Otley

John Currie 189 Spring Gardens Burley in Wharfdale   (brother)

Mrs E Watson  30 The Green Yeadon   (sister)

M. L Currie   30 The Green Yeadon (sister)

K Currie West Riding Asylum  Menston ?  (sister)"

 

For locals- Could 3 Chevinside, West chevin and Rose Cottage all be one and the same address? I know that someone walked the streets and listed the addresses but it's starting to get difficult to follow :-)

 

 

Mrs E Watson and ML Currie- Mary Currie is shown as four years older than her sister in 1901- so it would seem there are mistakes in the service document :-)- ie Watson may not be Emilys married name

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As The DNA results indicate that Joseph Currie was Ronald's father

who is the soldier in the photo ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

a relation to hannah Smith at a guess.

hannah could be from leicestershire maybe- I know the regt does not necessarily show where the man cam from but she has that sweethearts badge?

There are only a couple of hannah Smiths b in lei c 1896 (same age as Joseph) but there is currently no way to link any of them to her being in Yorkshire by 1913.

 

Time for some more DNA?

 

Just remind me- the photo was taken c 1917- ish? She is not wearig a wedding ring. Joseph died c 1917? 

Why did grandfather tear it up I wonder? and when?

 

The assumption is he didn;t know either of his parents BUT that he had the photo and someone told him that ws his mother.

 

Then we have the adoptive parents- and there is some difficult history there- which perhaps mean that maybe they took him under protestor? So could they be related in some way- if so which side of the family- as the picture is her possibly her side?

So many questions, so few answers :-(

Edited by Madmeg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Hi PBS/pshelley,

Fantastic news, I'm sure we can crack this one.  I think your DNA results will get even better as time goes on. Mine certainly have!

To find a common ancestor immediately is a plus. As your tree is private I understand you may not wish to share more up to date information about your grandfather's adoptive parents, if you have it, and yourself.

Personally I think it would help us to fill in a lot of gaps and may lead to other relations who have not taken a DNA test but have started a family tree. 

I have found a great deal of information about your ancestors which is obviously not for the GWF but from past experience it puts pieces into the jigsaw.

Here's hoping we can solve the puzzle.   Waiting to help.

Regards Barry

 

 

I've had a couple of people contact me who were adopted nd DNA is just starting to let them find their biological relatives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

As The DNA results indicate that Joseph Currie was Ronald's father

who is the soldier in the photo ?

 

How long is a piece of string?

 

e.g.:

Joseph's elder brother John Currie married Florence Preston in 1909. Florence had 4x brothers

1.  John Wood Preston 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/12048123/john-wood-preston

 

2.  Charles Preston

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/43260215/charles-preston

 

3.  Harry Preston - military service N/K

 

4.  William Preston - born 17 February 1885, Wharfedale.

 

Is this William Preston MM   Joseph Curries's brother-in-law?:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30431/supplement/13194/data.pdf

MM.jpg.91660c59aa67f8910caf0e0afd96c66b.jpg

 

 

JP

Edited by helpjpl
link: London Gazette 17 December 1917
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I think the photo is post 1916 and probably no later than 1919.

 

Not Joseph Currie and therefore not the father.

 

They are clearly quite smitten with each other and she with sweetheart broach of regiment. She's suggested to be a bridesmaid at unknown's wedding. He could just be her plus one and otherwise unconnected to Curries etc.

 

Had an idea that 'unknown' could be the Currie/Watson marriage but that has it's own issues.

 

Photo ripped up in anger directed at the mother not the soldier? So presumably she is the enigmatic 'Emily' Hannah Smith.

TEW

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, RaySearching said:

who is the soldier in the photo ?

Hats off to all involved so far! My list of Leicestershire regiment soldiers that were awarded the MM came to a grinding halt. I was using the Victory and War medal lists, which up to regimental number 12486 noted other medals awarded from VC down to MM. Then they stopped. I have 30 or so names of L/cpl or Cpl with MM and then 7pages ish of  foolscap, of Pte, Sgt, and WO if anyone needs them. Hand written and reasonably readable. Stuck for a way forward on my lists now! Regards, Bob.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Hats off to all involved so far! My list of Leicestershire regiment soldiers that were awarded the MM came to a grinding halt. I was using the Victory and War medal lists, which up to regimental number 12486 noted other medals awarded from VC down to MM. Then they stopped. I have 30 or so names of L/cpl or Cpl with MM and then 7pages ish of  foolscap, of Pte, Sgt, and WO if anyone needs them. Hand written and reasonably readable. Stuck for a way forward on my lists now! Regards, Bob.

 

He may be here:

action=search&attributeset=134&visibility=1&sort_field=title&sort_order=asc&a[soldier_surname][v]=&a[soldier_forenames][v]=&a[soldier_rank][v]=&a[soldier_army_number][v]=&q=Military+Medal&page=1

 

JP

Edited by helpjpl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, TEW said:

Photo ripped up in anger directed at the mother not the soldier? So presumably she is the enigmatic 'Emily' Hannah Smith.

TEW

 

Hi Tim and all,

Good question! However we don't know any of the circumstances surrounding the damage to the photo. All we have to go off is the family story but with the DNA result that one has been shown to be wrong, as happens frequently.

PBS's mother "thinks that it shows the parents of her father" and it was intentionally damaged by PBS's grandfather.

What if the photo is actually Ronald Smith Horton's adoptive parents? We are told that he didn't get on with them, so he would have reason to destroy the photo. 

When, where......we don't know.

Would Ronald have destroyed the only photo he had of his mother and the individual he believed to be his father? The fact that he tried to find his father suggests he didn't have any animosity towards him. I think he would have treasured the only photo he had.

We need to eliminate the "adoptive parents" from the search but without their details from PBS and the reason for RSH and his wife moving from Yorkshire to Lincolnshire then the task is enormous. 

As has been proved to be the case previously ANY information about the extended family is valuable, unfortunately the OP has, so far, chosen to keep this private.

Just the names will do for starters and we can do what we do best. 

Regards Barry

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

f448aeb98ae78ac2a8e662492f3d26f117efa5aaca04677d91da99e518454335.jpgHi AllUnidentified.jpg.02aca2940813f863613c4b87d0927841.jpg

George Simpson MM 10927 Sgt 9th Bn Leicestershire. ?????

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is some resemblance between the two men.  I see from 10927's MM card he was 'Attached 3rd Corps Schools', signal instructor perhaps? But no surviving service files.

 

Can a family link to Ada Curries' side of the family be shown to include a George?

TEW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m sorry to say that I don’t think they are the same man.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi All,

David Porter Jones, the Wharfedale Union Workhouse Master, had a very chequered history! Divorce proceedings brought by his first wife, Martha , nee Forman, show that he had numerous affairs at numerous workhouses up and down the country. Emily Currie worked at the Infirmary/Workhouse, DNA shows there is a link to the Currie family. PBS has told us it looks as though it could be to Joseph but perhaps the link is to Emily!

Perhaps Blanche Harriet Jones (nee Insull), his second wife and Matron at the Workhouse, was not aware of David's previous history. He married her in 1893 after being divorced in 1888. The 1891 census shows him to be a widower! He is a Nurse at the Dudley Union Workhouse.https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2465/images/40243_636897_5491-00006?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=b16a5b4d64e09c8efaa95ff4d23ff61a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=iyp10290&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.37536036.580380815.1612166045-375430043.1602265084&pId=66406

Could the above have something to do with the registration of Ronald's birth?

Searching...

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all, here are my lists, they may help? Regards, Bob. PS;they did not load in order for some reason?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bob Davies
To delete pics....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The Inspector said:

f448aeb98ae78ac2a8e662492f3d26f117efa5aaca04677d91da99e518454335.jpg

George Simpson MM 10927 Sgt 9th Bn Leicestershire. ?????

Regards Barry

 

1.  George Simpson MM was a native of Wigston in Leicestershire and employed at the Two Steeples hosiery factory in Wigston:

https://royalleicestershireregiment.org.uk/entity/120473-simpson-george-mm?q=Military Medal

 

from here:

https://royalleicestershireregiment.org.uk/search/entities?action=search&attributeset=134&visibility=1&sort_field=title&sort_order=asc&a[soldier_surname][v]=&a[soldier_forenames][v]=&a[soldier_rank][v]=&a[soldier_army_number][v]=&q=Military+Medal&page=25

 

2.  This may be him - 1911 census - Grendon House, Central Avenue, Wigston - from ancestry:

1911.jpg.ca5091bbbd3cd2066a3e84e2855a8525.jpg

 

3.  The marriage of a George Simpson to Elsie A Humberstone was registered Oct-Dec 1818 in Blaby.

 

4.  According to the 1939 Register for Wigston, George Simpson was born 03 March 1892 (registered April-Jun 1892, Blaby) and Elsie A Simpson nee Humberstone was born 01 May 1892.

 

Edit:

5.  I agree with FROGSMILE - I don't think George Simpson is the man in pshelley's photo.

 

JP

Edited by helpjpl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

These pictures are a bit clearer.

014.jpg

008.jpg

009.jpg

010.jpg

011.jpg

012.jpg

013.jpg

Edited by Bob Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...