Help required - trying to solve family mystery and identify this soldier (Yorkshire connection)

[Gardenerbill]

19 hours ago, SHJ said:

There needs to be a like function!  That way I could like this post by ilkley remembers and any other like-able posts like ilkley remembers' post.

You can follow topics which works in a similar way and you get notifications if it is switched on when new content is added.

[Guest]

Gobsmacked!     A Mr. Lucas and a Mr. Spielberg may contact you later

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Well done Keith.

I knew you wouldn't disappoint.

[knittinganddeath]

If the tradition of Victorian floriography continued into the 20th century, you might be able to get a better idea of the relationship between the people in the photo by identifying the flowers in her corsage. It might also give you an indication of the season when the photo was taken, which you could potentially use to narrow down the ID of the soldier as it would have to match his leave dates.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

It puzzles my why someone would almost destroy a photo like this, yet not throw it away?

[corisande]

On 15/01/2021 at 12:45, pshelley said:

Unfortunately, the photograph was damaged (intentionally by my grandfather) and my grandmother who retrieved it, glued it to some card

 

I think he believed that he had destroyed it, but his wife found the bits and made the reconstruction

[Keith Brannen]

Thanks for the comments, everyone. I was still not happy with her bottom lip, looked a bit one dimensional, so added a bit of shadow under it. Think it looks a bit better, so this is my final version!

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

I think he believed that he had destroyed it, but his wife found the bits and made the reconstruction

Thanks.

That makes sense.

[Kath]

She has a lovely face.

[The Inspector]

Hi,

Am I right in thinking our man is a  Regimental Signaller Instructor? Badge worn above Chevron on his left arm.? Or should it be on his right arm? Or did it not matter?  Nothing posted  so far,  only Signaller.

Regards Barry

Edited 28 January , 2021 by The Inspector

[Michelle Young]

She is wearing a Leicesters sweetheart brooch I think 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

She is wearing a Leicesters sweetheart brooch I think 

Yes, an excellent spot, typical of your eagle eyes Michelle.  It seems to be the very popular Mother of Pearl type.

 

Edited 28 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

22 hours ago, Kath said:

She has a lovely face.

She is indeed very pretty, Kath, I agree.

Edited 28 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

There was a thread about these broaches (with most of the input from Frogsmile)

 

 

[The Inspector]

On 23/01/2021 at 16:15, pshelley said:

So its been an eventful week since I got hold of the birth certificates and my DNA results also came back. There's a story beginning to emerge here and its looking quite an interesting one (IMHO). I'm still crunching through the DNA data and I think it will be of some use.

Hi PBS,

?? What part of the world are you living in? Have been searching. I think you will end up with a lot of distant cousins and hopefully some with cms and segs. proving a link.

I am amazed at what turned up for me. I have traced my relations, my mum was "adopted" and she never found her parents. I have.

I think the photo is a brother and sister one. Facial features...the nose..! Possibly attending a relatives wedding and he has just received his MM ribbon. No rings, she wouldn't hide one if it was her wedding. If it is your gt/grandmother then that's where I would be searching.

So many family stories turn out to be untrue although there certainly was a cover up on the birth cert.

Look forward to your DNA results....still searching though!

Regards Barry

Edited 29 January , 2021 by The Inspector

[RaySearching]

Just to Recap

 

At the turn of the century, unmarried young females who found themselves in the family way “with child ”

were often sent away to an institution to have the child, the child being given up for adoption straight away

 

As the informant some 21 days later, who registered the birth of Ronald Smith was the matron of the Union workhouse /Infirmary and not the mother of the child  Hannah Smith, suggests that Ronald was given up for adoption soon after being born

 

As the birth certificate shows The address of the mother is shown as Rose Cottage, West Chevin, Otley

 

The birth certificate provided to the forum (1916) being a copy of the original 1913 birth certificate with details added to it

 

 

The 1911 census records the occupants of the property Rose Cottage Chevin Otley as, The Currie family

 

James Currie age 45

Ada Currie    age 42

Emily Currie  age 20

Joseph Currie age 18

Catherine Currie age 14

 

There has been no evidence provided that the Currie family were still residing at Rose Cottage in 1913

When Hannah Smith is recorded as residing there as a housekeeper

 

In fact I believe that the Currie family, thought to be still residing there in 1913, to be a red herring The Currie family having most likely having moved on to a different address shortly after 1911 and before 1913

 

Joseph Curries service surviving documents (Ancestry Link) , appear to confirm the family have dispersed, and moved on

 

Joseph enlisted on the 24th Nov 1915 his address given as the Menston? Asylum where he was employed

Josephs relatives are listed on his service documents as

 

Father and mother James and Ada Currie of 3 Chevin Side Otley

John Currie 189 Spring Gardens Burley in Wharfdale   (brother)

Mrs E Watson  30 The Green Yeadon   (sister)

M. L Currie   30 The Green Yeadon (sister)

K Currie West Riding Asylum  Menston ?  (sister)

 

CWGC only records the parents of Joseph as Mr and Mrs Currie of Otley

The claimant of a dependant’s pension is listed as Ada (mother) the James (father) of 3 Chevin Side Otley

 

The challenge for the GWF is to establish the identity of the soldier in the photo who served in the Leicestershire regiment and was awarded the M.M

VOLTAIR60 has kindly provided the forum with a list of all the soldiers who were in the Leicestershire Reg and were awarded the M.M, the soldier in the photo must be among them

 

Whist the opening poster believes that the photo may be Ronald Smith Hopton’s mother and father I am afraid that oral family history and family folklore more often than not is found to be flawed and incorrect

 

As the photo has I believe along with the birth certificate originated from the Hopton family

That is the family I would research

 

It may turn out that the Hopton’s may be privy to information that the opening poster is seeking

I would advise him to bite the bullet and try and contact them

 

If its not intruding maybe Pshelly could provide us with the names of Ronald’s adoptive parents

It may or may not assist in establishing, who the couple are in the photograph, which Keith has done a marvellous job of restoring

 

 

Ray

[The Inspector]

Hi Ray and all,,

If we don't have the details to work on then the task is much harder, happens regularly........unfortunately.

PBS...we need more details.

Regards Barry

[TEW]

The Rose Cottage, West Chevin address and the Currie family is throwing up some anomalies for me.

 

James & Family are there on 1911 census. Ancestry have West Yorkshire electoral rolls  There is a James Currie listed at Chevin Foot, Otley from 1905-1914 including the census year. But NB 1913 shows 2x James Curries in Otley.

 

Then the Dawson family are living in Rose Cottage 1918/19 when the Curries are at 3 Chevin Side.

 

It's possible that Chevin Foot (sometimes West Chevin Foot) is the Rose Cottage address?

 

The electoral roll doesn't seem to have Rose Cottage before 1918 while the 1911 census does not seem to mention Chevin Foot.

 

I made an attempt at gleaning a location for Rose Cottage from the 1911 sequence, not a satisfactory outcome as the neighbours were either on the West Chevin rd just south of the present A660 or further West near the present Valley View Forge. Could either be termed 'Chevin Foot?

 

TEW

[ilkley remembers]

53 minutes ago, TEW said:

I made an attempt at gleaning a location for Rose Cottage from the 1911 sequence, not a satisfactory outcome as the neighbours were either on the West Chevin rd just south of the present A660 or further West near the present Valley View Forge. Could either be termed 'Chevin Foot?

 

 

Otley Chevin is a high and steep side and flat topped feature which overlooks the town. There are two roads, both with steep inclines, leading south from the centre of Otley  onto The Chevin, one is East Chevin Road which is the main road to Leeds about 14 miles away and the other West Chevin Road which links Otley To Menston and Guiseley. Rose Cottage would have been at the bottom off the hill on West Chevin Road near to its junction with Birdcage Walk which is itself the link Road to East Chevin Road. Chevin Side is a small row of cottages just off  Birdcage Walk near to its junction with East Chevin Road in an area which has probably been called East Chevin Foot. In these parts, 'Foot' is commonly used to identify settlements or in this case groups of houses at the bottom of a steep hill 

[RaySearching]

 

Detailed Old Victorian Ordnance Survey 6 inch to 1 mile Old ...

www.archiuk.com › cgi-bin › build_nls_historic_map

 

 

                            

Detailed Old Victorian Ordnance Survey 6 inch to 1 mile Old Map (1888-1913) , Otley, West Yorkshire Archaeology UK (ARCHI UK): British Ordnance Survey Old 

 

above is a link to a map of the area cannot see Rose Cottage in West Chevin ?

[The Inspector]

Hi All,

As previously posted, Ronald Smith Hopton and Mary Agnes ( nee Kilgallon, mother's maiden name Ruthven)) Hopton moved to Lincoln after 1939 after being married in Huddersfield in 1938. They both died in Lincoln. Mary's grave stone is unusual in that it does not mention the names of other deceased relations? Ronald died in 1993, she died in 1997.

Someone must know something else!!!    Searching. Regards Barry

 

Edited 29 January , 2021 by The Inspector

[TEW]

Ilkley remembers,

 

Hoped you might spot my post and enlighten with some local knowledge.

 

I looked at the 1911 census summary book which gives properties in the following order, without assuming they are necessarily in a geographical sequence.

Highfield,  Woodville, Westville, Rose Cottage, Westroyd, West Chevin Villas, Ramsdale, & Lindisfarne.

 

Present incarnations of Highfield & Woodville are near Valley View Forge (South of Westville, also named.)

Westroyd, WC Villas, Ramsdale & Lindisfarne were in the Birdcage area so I was split between the two locations for Rose Cottage.

 

Ray's map also shows 'Chevin Side' to the south of the forge area (near Chevin Hall) whereas modern Google places it near Birdcage!

TEW

[ilkley remembers]

12 hours ago, TEW said:

Ilkley remembers,

 

Hoped you might spot my post and enlighten with some local knowledge.

 

I looked at the 1911 census summary book which gives properties in the following order, without assuming they are necessarily in a geographical sequence.

Highfield,  Woodville, Westville, Rose Cottage, Westroyd, West Chevin Villas, Ramsdale, & Lindisfarne.

 

Present incarnations of Highfield & Woodville are near Valley View Forge (South of Westville, also named.)

Westroyd, WC Villas, Ramsdale & Lindisfarne were in the Birdcage area so I was split between the two locations for Rose Cottage.

 

Ray's map also shows 'Chevin Side' to the south of the forge area (near Chevin Hall) whereas modern Google places it near Birdcage!

TEW

 

Hi Tew, I worked out of Otley Police Station for a couple of years so have a reasonable knowledge of the area, although, it is going back about over 10 years now. 

 

Essentially that part of Otley to the south of the old and disused Otley to Ilkley railway line remains much as it did about 100 years ago and many of the houses on Birdcage Walk and West Chevin Road retain and use names rather than numbers. Locals still use 'Chevin Foot' to identify the area, although, in the main it is used specifically for the area at the bottom of West Chevin Road where the incline begins to steepen just after the junction with Birdcage Walk. 

 

When I checked the 1911 Census I looked at the full entries for about 10-15 addresses either side of Rose Cottage the identifiable addresses were all  near or adjacent to the West Chevin/Birdcage junction. For example the west Chevin Villas are the group of six semi detached houses which overlook the railway line (they stand out because they are brick rather than stone which is the norm in this area), Ashwood House and and Westville House. The occupants also tended to use the West Chevin as part of the address which led me to believe that Rose Cottage was in this small area and with only 4 rooms somewhat more modest than many of the surrounding properties

 

Chevin Side at the other end of Birdcage Road is a short road at the rear of an old and small mill or industrial complex. The houses are typical small 2 up 2 down industrial cottages on one side of the street and may have been 'tied' to the mill. 

 

Like you I noticed two men with the name James Currie in Otley at the time, although, the second man lived on the other side of the town off the road to Pool in Wharfedale and Harewood.

 

Ray seems to suggest that the Currie family began to disperse after 1911, although, none have gone very far. Menston is about 2 miles away and Burley in Wharfedale perhaps 3 miles. The family do seem to have had a connection with High Royds aka the West Riding Asylum which is a huge complex of buildings, jus t'other side ot hill, as they say in these parts, from Rose Cottage.

 

Hope this helps,

 

regards

 

IR

Edited 30 January , 2021 by ilkley remembers

[TEW]

It was the (possible) dispersal of the Currie family by 1913 that set me looking at the Rose Cottage entry in the 1911 census and then comparing to the West Yorkshire electoral rolls.

 

As the WY electoral rolls have James Currie's address as (West) Chevin Foot, Otley 1905 -1914 but the 1911 census shows Rose Cottage I'm leaning towards them being one and the same place. If true this would only delay their dispersal another year but does mean they were there when the birth was registered. It also shows they were there for seven years proir to the census.

 

I note as well the 1901 census complicates things by having Rose Villa in sequence with Highfield, Woodville and Westville.

TEW

 

 

[The Inspector]

On 24/01/2021 at 14:33, pshelley said:

For all of you who asked, here is the birth certificate from 1913/1916. I post the full photograph shortly. Thanks again to all of you, I really do appreciate your help and time.

 

 

Hi All,

I wonder why the Registrar, N.Whitaker, included  the occupation and address of "Hannah Smith" when all that is asked for is the "Name and Maiden Surname of Mother" and described Blanche Harriet Jones as the Occupier of New Hall, Newall, Otley, ie. the Union Workhouse. when she was the "Matron".

Would this be to disassociate the birth with the workhouse or to be blunt...cover it up? Still searching..

Regards Barry