Chevrons and Star

[Martyn Gibson]

Close up picture of wife's grandad getting married in 1918. He was George William Gibson, Royal Engineers and a Master Carpenter.

 

What does the Star above his chevrons indicate please I'm at a loss.

 

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Martyn

[jay dubaya]

I believe it is a Territorial Force efficiency award

[FROGSMILE]

I think that Jay is correct.  In Territorial Force regulations a man had to be ‘returned’ (meaning reported to higher formation) as efficient for four years consecutively to earn his first star.

[Martyn Gibson]

Hi Guys thank you very much for taking the time to reply back. Information greatly received.

 

Martyn

[Muerrisch]

22 minutes ago, Martyn Gibson said:

Hi Guys thank you very much for taking the time to reply back. Information greatly received.

 

Martyn

More likely distance judging.

Date is 1918 or later, TF men tended not to cling to TF-exclusive badges.

RE shot full musketry course and competed for the badge.

No extra pay attached.

[FROGSMILE]

It would be illuminating to know if subject soldier was a Territorial, or a Regular, perhaps Martyn can advise?

 

I’m unclear in my mind as to whether the Territorials of that period, who had their own dress regulations, different to Regulars, had provisions for the award of distance judging badges of the same pattern.  As the Territorials marksmanship badges were entirely different over the same period it makes me wonder quite how things compared?

 

NB.  If he is a regular army soldier then it must indeed be a distance judging star.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Martyn, 

the RE corporal  photo was after Christmas 1917 because he was wearing three overseas service chevrons sanctioned late 1917, his first chevron awarded the day he left Home, the next on the anniversary, and the next a year later.

 

The Volunteer Force, predecessor of the TF until 1908, had different Skill-at-Arms badges from the Regulars.

Howver the Territorial Force, of which he might have been a member, was entitled to the full range of Regular Skill-at-Arms badges, and in khaki drab service dress they were identical.

Para. 494 TF regs 1910 refers. Nevertheless the TF County Associations were semi-autonomous and some may well have not bothered with the distance judging star, as it could cause confusion The Regulations do not deal with the very real possibility of a TF RE soldier, with efficiency star or stars, being also qualified at distance judging, but photos exist of a pragmatic solution; a star on each arm. 

He could therefore indeed be TF or a Regular ["Regular" included Kitchener's Army men, Special Reserve men, and conscripts] with a Distance Judging Star,

 

Staying with the possibility of TF, the TF -specific star [identical in design] signified four years efficient service but [and it is a big but] TF-specific service stars and other arm badges had tended to disappear in war even if the men were pre-war qualified. I have never seen an Order abolishing wearing the badges, they just seem to have slowly vanished in the stirring and mixing and matching and casualties of war. Another reason for the efficiency stars to disappear was that any TF soldier of any rank was junior to any Regular soldier of nominal equal rank.

 

I judge a TF efficiency star to be unlikely in 1918.

 

So, was he TF?

 

[FROGSMILE]

Do you mean that the TF specific efficiency star was identical in design and appearance to the distance judging star?

[Martyn Gibson]

Hi Guys thanks for getting in touch.

 

His service number was (T)2473 so I presume the T Prefix denotes Territorial. He served the entire war with the London Regiment.

 

Hope this helps

 

Martyn

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Martyn Gibson said:

Hi Guys thanks for getting in touch.

 

His service number was (T)2473 so I presume the T Prefix denotes Territorial. He served the entire war with the London Regiment.

 

Hope this helps

 

Martyn

Thanks Martyn, that confirms he was a Territorial Force (auxiliary) soldier.  The London Regiment was an infantry unit, whereas his photo and your initial post shows him to have been a Corporal in the Royal Engineers?  If he was never an infantryman, but was instead a highly skilled craftsman as a Master Carpenter, then it would be more odd for him to have a distance judging star.  I suspect he was an RE soldier of a London Division (the higher formation that contained a number of Brigades that in turn was comprised of various units).
 

Royal Engineers in field companies put more focus on the basic military skills than those in specialised trade groups, especially a man apparently at the peak of his trade group such as your wife’s grandfather.  There was no higher grade of carpenter.  It’s impossible to be 100% sure, but it at least suggests that forum member jay dubaya is more likely to have been correct with his original suggestion. 

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Martyn I am confused.

 

Gibson cannot be London Regiment throughout the entire war, and also RE in 1918 .

 

Here is an undoubted efficiency star on RAMC probably early in the war from the economy jacket: the RAMC did not shoot the full musketry course and did not compete for the distance judging badge, unlike RE.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting.  It certainly looks like the same badge.

[Muerrisch]

Sergeant, Notts c. 1908, a star on each arm ....... one hopes distance and efficiency, both officially on the right sleeve. 

[FROGSMILE]

The one on the left sleeve was for reengaging or reenlisting with the Militia after completing an initial term. I can’t recall offhand if it was carried over to the Special Reserve, but imagine that it probably was.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SteveE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Martyn I am confused.

 

Gibson cannot be London Regiment throughout the entire war, and also RE in 1918 .

The Royal Engineers BWM & Victory Medal Roll (NA ref. WO 329/0485) entry for Gibson confirms that he was a Territorial in that force, his original service number was 2473 with a later 1917 renumbering to 548464.  The latter number is indicative of service with the 2nd London Field Company which may be where the London confusion arises?

 

Steve

[Muerrisch]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The one on the left sleeve was for reengaging or reenlisting with the Militia after completing an initial term. I can’t recall offhand if it was carried over to the Special Reserve, but imagine that it probably was.

Martyn until you clear up RE or London Regt I am in the dark. Militia reengagement star had 4 points.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Martyn until you clear up RE or London Regt I am in the dark. Militia reengagement star had 4 points.

Yes, you’re quite right, it was conversed about here: 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/233111-pre-war-cloth-shoulder-titles-rank-and-insignia-photos/page/64/

where the apparent and inexplicable misuse of 5-pointed stars in several incidences was also mentioned.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Martyn, your man appears to be TF RE. All RE were supposed to shoot the annual musketry course and this included competing for a limited number of five point judging stars.

 

As TF RE he might have clung to an efficiency star earned pre-war. He might have been good at distance judging. The stars were very similar if not identical in the Service Dress version. 

 

I doubt if we will ever know what the star was for unless Gibson's service documents record one or the other.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

In other words Martyn, it’s not impossible that what forum member jay dubaya said yesterday at 12:41 was correct.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SteveE]

23 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Martyn, your man appears to be TF RE. All RE were supposed to shoot the annual musketry course and this included competing for a limited number of five point judging stars.

 

As TF RE he might have clung to an efficiency star earned pre-war. He might have been good at distance judging. The stars were very similar if not identical in the Service Dress version. 

 

I doubt if we will ever know what the star was for unless Gibson's service documents record one or the other.

 

 

There are some service documents available for Gibson but they do not record what the star is as far as I can see.  They do however show that he enlisted on 26th May 1915 if you can draw any conclusions from that?

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, SteveE said:

There are some service documents available for Gibson but they do not record what the star is as far as I can see.  They do however show that he enlisted on 26th May 1915 if you can draw any conclusions from that?

 

Steve

Four years TF service needed to earn the first efficiency star Steve, so on the surface of things he wouldn’t quite have served long enough by 1918 when the photo was supposed to have been taken.

 

 I enclose a picture of a full dress distance judging star.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Martyn Gibson]

Hi Guys thanks for all the input.

 

Facts as known from Ancestry......

Enlisted 26/15/1915 1st London Divisional Engineers.

2/2 London Field Company Royal Engineers

3/1 London Field Company Royal Engineers

513 London Field Company (T)

L/Cpl 1/9/1916

Cpl 7/5/1917

Discharged 14/1/1919

Below is a copy of full picture taken at St Lukes Church Hackney on 2/11/1918

 

[FROGSMILE]

On the basis of his length of service from enlistment to discharge, Martyn, it seems more likely that his star badge relates to skill in judging distance in connection with rifle shooting.  It’s a pity that we can’t see his left lower arm, as men with that skill quite often also had the marksman’s badge of crossed rifles, although that’s not a given.

Edited 16 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Martyn it is a common feature that soldiers with the marksman badge usually managed to get it into a portrait, even if it meant contortions.

 However, the bride may have had other ideas.

[FROGSMILE]

Martyn both bride and groom have an unusually pensive, anxious look given the presumably happy occasion for them both.  I find myself wondering if they had any inkling that the Armistice was so imminent.  Probably not I would guess.

Edited 16 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE