Gspragge Posted 11 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2021 Today this one appeared and I bought it. The overall condition is worn mainly on the handle. It's been rusty (fine pitting) and over cleaned (grips) . The blade however Very very much conforms to the DA marked examples. The blade tip is pointed in the same way and has proper length. Obviously it is not From HMS Canada etc, but that is only one ship among hundreds which would not bear Chilean markings. So here we go again - But this is certainly not one with the Canadian blade style modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 12 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2021 I did a search and found two more that had been sold last year with their rifles. Doing another blade length estimate using the known scabbard length it worked out to 9 7/8" as seems to be the normal (I know a tad dicy with distortion) . Though there might be a bit of blade tip shape variation , it could just as easily be photo distortion. There should be more of these around without the Chilean markings, many more concidering the number of ships these would have been on. So far I've only found one that seems certain and the other maybe's. Now one thing to concider with my examples with slightly shorter blades ( 9 11/16" x 2, 9 13/16") is that these have been resharpened a secound time rather roughly. (by an idiot even if it's an official one) There could easily have been some loss of length because of this. As these things were surplussed off later they could easily have been at 9 7/8" then suffered abuse. This might account for the seeming absence of more exact DA example types without the DA marks being around. I don't think you could reshape one of the canadian angled blades and achieve this profile. I'm not an expert bayonet collector though in my WW1 collecting past I had quite a good assortment of British and German types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 5 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2021 To update things, I have picked up this example in original condition without any post ww1 Chilean markings. Also an overlay with my other two examples showing that they conform though have lost a bit from abuse - Now on a slightly different tangent, I came across some sharpened but still blunt tipped CEF issued examples. I bought one thinking it was a Navel example, images being deceptive, but it wasn't. These are all in the UK or were as I picked up a couple. These seem to appear (if there is one) with a scabbaard missing the loop. This is to fit the 08 web frog. These bayonets seem to date 1914 (early 1915 is quite possible) and back so are likely 1st & 2nd Divisional issues. These did not suffer the October 1915 ordered blade alteration and I supect most of them in France avoided that. They also didn't get into the hands of the RN other wise the scabbard would have gotten a new top with stud and the blade modified to a spear point. A bit of a mystery there, but at least one can identify an actual CEF carried in France example as those have the sharpened tip. These are not found in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 June , 2021 Share Posted 5 June , 2021 Wow! You are really getting up to speed on these so many thanks for sharing the information with us all! I must have a look for my Ross - like all my bayonets in a cupboard parked away during Covid to give the boys space to study and work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 8 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2021 If one wonders where all the Ross Rifles and bayonets are , they seem to be at Rock Island Auctions ! This one a British contract Ross has a Navel modified bayonet with it, the scabbard is Canadian issue not British purchase so it is likely an ex CEF type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 June , 2021 Share Posted 8 June , 2021 I'm not sure if this will help - but here are mine. far right and one in from right are US marked The blade second from the left appears significnatly different from the others in terms of the general profile (not just the point) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 9 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2021 Thanks for the images. You clearly have a Navel issued one (on the left). Is it British proofed on the other side, as I can't make out any Canadian markings on the push button side. The one beside it looks to have been rather aggresively sharpened - It seems that Ross bayonets have suffered abuse all out of perportion to how many there were compared to other types - Beaten , crushed , rusted, ground away - infinite awful hunting knives - it just goes on and on - and the final abuse ; the absurd prices asked for what is nothing special most of the time ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 June , 2021 Share Posted 9 June , 2021 Chris, Thanks for showing all these! I guess you must be on vacation? Sadly I am not, two summer school courses... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 June , 2021 Share Posted 9 June , 2021 1 hour ago, trajan said: Chris, Thanks for showing all these! I guess you must be on vacation? Sadly I am not, two summer school courses... Julian I was when I took the pics but my 2 summer courses started on Monday too 😪 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 9 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2021 4th Gordons, just confirming is your RN bayonet a British Purchase ? as I can't make out any Canadian marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 June , 2021 Share Posted 9 June , 2021 I will check and photograph for you. I have it on my M1910 which has a small N mark but my recollection is that there are no British proofs on it and some Canadian marks on the scabbard. I will get to it later today. Chris So it turns out there ARE Canadian markings (although light 10/15) and an inspection on the tang There are also Canadian markings on the scabbard (and it appears to be 1916 and MkII) and a number at the top of the scabbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 June , 2021 Share Posted 10 June , 2021 13 hours ago, 4thGordons said: I was when I took the pics but my 2 summer courses started on Monday too 😪 In my case it pays for the upcoming school fees, in your case rifles? I'll try to find my single Ross later today - it has been so long since I have seen it as all my bayonets are in cupboards / storage chests moved out of the way to make room for the boys as they home-study. It is not a naval one, I am sure of that, but I think it has an unaltered blade, which might be of interest to the OP. IIRC, it is a GB one. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 17 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2021 I Just went head to head with some one in a Switzer auction and lost after some heated bidding. I was after the scabbard mainly as the bayonet certainly wasn't right for the piece. But it showed that the Royal Navel Resurve was issued with Ross bayonets, likely later in WW1. I have seen one of these many years ago. One wonders if whom ever got it knows what should be in it, the MK1 Ross bayonet certainly didn't. Also does anyone know what this small mark is on this pointed British purchase Ross ? Comments so far don't really pin it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 December , 2021 Share Posted 7 December , 2021 (edited) Sorry about the Lazarus thread but.... if @Gspragge or any other experts are around -- could I ask about Ross Bayonet SCABBARDS I just purchased another Ross bayonet (in rough condition) at auction (I do not yet have it in hand) and I mostly got it because the impending "celebration which traditionally involves the exchange of gifts" has given me some license ("oh just get something and I will wrap it up....") and also because I noticed it had a different form of scabbard. Skennerton and Richardson show 3 patterns of scabbard all with the integral frog, and mention the pitting of a P1888 scabbard locket in the 1920s? This thread shows an additional pattern with an external metal locket with a frog stud on it (mine - possibly the p1888 pattern mentioned by S&R ) and a scabbard with an external metal locket without a frog stud on it ( gspragge's ) the one I just bought is similar (although appears black rather than brown) Can anyone @shippingsteel @AndyBsk @trajan @wheatypoint me in the direction of a definitive list of Ross Scabbards? I do not yet have my new example in hand but assuming I can intercept it before the aforementioned wrapping I will photograph and post it. Chris Edited 7 December , 2021 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 7 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2021 Post an image when you have it, Derrick is the person to answer this, but lets see what you have first. The scabbard with out loop and with the new top with stud is a Royal Navy alteration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 December , 2021 Share Posted 7 December , 2021 4 hours ago, 4thGordons said: Can anyone point me in the direction of a definitive list of Ross Scabbards? Chris your best bet is to read the pages in Skennerton which seem to cover it under both the Canadian and British sections. All types are mentioned there and I don't know of any other references to speak of. There are the 3 documented patterns and then some modified types which are probably not officially sanctioned with corresponding paperwork, etc. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 December , 2021 Share Posted 7 December , 2021 Not sure if everyone is aware but the official reference for the British Ross version and scabbard is documented in the List of Changes #17690 dated 21st October 1915. This lists the lengths, dimensions and weights of both the bayonet and scabbard as well as all the rifle specifications. I have a copy if anyone wants any details in particular. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 December , 2021 Share Posted 7 December , 2021 (edited) The official specifications for the British version of bayonet and scabbard could be at the Royal Armouries Museum in Birmingham. Leeds! Maybe the Canadian War Museum's Military History Research Centre might be able to help with similar documentation for the original specifications of the Ross? Julian Edited 7 December , 2021 by trajan Brain f*t* with Birmingham instead of Leeds... Been a busy day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheaty Posted 7 December , 2021 Share Posted 7 December , 2021 The tip on the "second from the left" was a field expedient sharpening" as it was found that the butter knife tip would not pierce a great coat, winter and some leather gear. It MIGHT be in the list of changes but not sure where I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 December , 2021 Share Posted 7 December , 2021 As Gspragge has already alluded to on this thread you have to be very careful with the Ross bayonet (more so than any other due to its handy size and shape and usefulness as a hunting knife and general utility blade in the household) in attributing any sharpening or shaping as Military as they have mostly spent the larger part of their serviceable lives in civilian hands. For anyone interested I will transcribe some of the info from the LoC #17690 regarding the scabbard and bayonet details. "The scabbard is of brown leather fitted with internal steel chape at the bottom end, and a steel locket with two springs at the top end. A leather band is sewn on the top end with an upward extension forming a loop, so it may be hung on the waist belt." Length of sword bayonet (overall) ... 14 3/4 inches Length of sword bayonet blade ... 10 3/16 inches Length of scabbard, over chape and locket ... 11 3/8 inches Length of scabbard, over loop ... 16 1/2 inches Weight of sword bayonet ... 1 lb 1 3/8 oz Weight of scabbard ... 7 oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 December , 2021 Share Posted 11 December , 2021 Well it has arrived and is in far rougher shaped than I hoped. Scabbard is *just* about holding together.... it is about 2/3 torn through just below the locket and dry rotted. Not sure it reveals much about the scabbard type? It does have a Canadian stamp on it along with a couple of other illegible marks Metal locket without a stud -- appears to have been painted dark green at some point Large numbers on wooden scales (overstamped with US ownership marks which is interesting as it would seem to suggest the large numbers were Canadian) Anyway - the overview pics... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 11 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2021 Well, it should clean up well enough, I'm not sure a Canadian marking would just be 89 with nothing else with it. So I suspect a U.S. rack number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 December , 2021 Share Posted 11 December , 2021 (edited) Chris, your scabbard appears to be a regular Mk.II version made by the Ross Rifle Company and looks to be dated 1911. It is obviously missing the "integral" leather frog/hanger which should of course be present.! The remnants of the markings found at the tip of the scabbard tell the story here. Cheers, SS Edited 11 December , 2021 by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspragge Posted 23 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2022 I haven't had anything new for a while, but a few things have dribbled in. So I have updated my group of RN altered Ross bayonets with the addition of two, rather more than I expected to have or need but often things arrive and you get a surprize ! I have marked them as to tip style, dated if ex Canadian Issue, UK purchase if other wise and also where I obtained them. So I have evidence here of British purchased Ross bayonets getting to the Royal Navy, but no proof at all of any rifles ~ But the absolute paucity of period photgraphs does not help either. Two tip styles so maybe two different workshops, or the night shift did it there own way ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 January , 2022 Share Posted 23 January , 2022 3 hours ago, Gspragge said: So I have evidence here of British purchased Ross bayonets getting to the Royal Navy, but no proof at all of any rifles ~ But the absolute paucity of period photgraphs does not help either. Here is a photo of the Ross rifle in use with the Royal Navy, obviously it is from a later period, but the weapons themselves did not change. Also a good cross section view of the bayonet, to get a gauge on the tip profile.! Photo cropped from the image found on the page linked below ... https://1914centenary.com/2017/01/31/royal-navy-museum-marks-centenary-of-wrns/ Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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