Edward ted bignall

[Elliswaterton]

Hi guys! Firstly I want to say thank you very much to Peter who replied to my post yesterday regarding my 2x great grandad Bert stubbs. 
 

I hope I am doing this write? When I have a question do I just post a topic like this? Also is there some way I can just scroll through other peoples questions and just absorb some information regarding there questions etc. 
 

also my next question is about my 2x great grandfather from my other side. His name is Edward ted Bignall

Born Jan 1884 Northfleet, Kent, England

Died 11 Oct 1952 Dartford. I’ve found a few bits pieces on ancestry but cannot build a real picture. Thank you  

[Elliswaterton]

Right* 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Elliswaterton said:

I hope I am doing this write? When I have a question do I just post a topic like this?

 

Hi again – that’s fine. I for one find it easier to keep track of if only one thing \theme is dealt with at a time.  If you’d have added this on to your previous thread you could easily have people responding to Bert Stubbs and others to Edward Bignall, and it can very quickly get very confusing. Plus a new title gets you a chance to grab peoples attention – again always a matter of choice but as the forum is relatively fast moving I don’t usually tend to look at threads with more than 6 posts as I already assume the question is likely to have been answered and there is nothing I can contribute. I’ve seen the odd comment on here from other long term members that they don’t look because they assume it’s too complicated !

 

2 hours ago, Elliswaterton said:

Died 11 Oct 1952 Dartford.

 

The only match I can see in the General Registrars Index of Deaths in England & Wales that matches that is for an Edward BignEll, death recorded in the Dartford District in Q4 1952, aged 68.

 

Unfortunately no obvious civil probate for either an Edward BignAll or BignEll so can’t use that as a check.

 

There is an Edward BignEll recorded on the 1939 Register at 37 Bexley Road, Erith, Kent, a married Carpenters’ Labourer. He is the first person in the household, but gave his date of birth as the 25th December 1884. The second person in the household and most likely his wife is a Mary Bignell, then probably two unmarried children, Edward, (born 10th February 1912) and Thomas, (born 21st March 1914), plus three records that remain closed under the terms by which this part of the Register was released under a Freedom of Information request.

(Nothing cloak and dagger, they were either not known to have died by 1992, when the register ceased being used, or they had not reached 100 by the time it was released in 2011. Closed records are reviewed and opened once the 100 years old date is reached, but it’s up to the likes of Ancestry and FindMyPast as to how quickly they update the version on display)

 

2 hours ago, Elliswaterton said:

Born Jan 1884 Northfleet, Kent, England

 

There is a birth of an Edward BignAll registered with the Civil Authorities in the Medway District of Kent in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1884. There is no mothers’ maiden name available in the sources I’m using, nor can I find a likely baptism online.

 

It would be a good idea to tell us what you already know – for example do you definitely know that he served in the armed forces in WW1 or are you assuming because of his birth year he must have done.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

P.S.

 

2 hours ago, Elliswaterton said:

Right* 

 

If you click on the three dots on the top right hand corner of your comment you should see an Edit function. While editing there is also a separate box that pops up to give you a chance to say something about why you are editing – this one from me will probably say “Typo” quite soon. The same three dots give you the option to hide your comment if it is no longer relevant – so you could edit post 1 and hide post 2.

 

2 hours ago, Elliswaterton said:

Also is there some way I can just scroll through other peoples questions and just absorb some information regarding there questions etc.

 

In the blue bar across the top that includes the search box, one of the words is “Activity”. That will change the options available in the white bar underneath to include “All GWF Activity” “Content I posted in”, “Content I started” and the like.

 

The first one will give you all the threads that are on the go, most recent post first.

 

Or click on “Forums” under “Browse”, to see a list of the sub-forums and you can then see whats on the go in areas of interest to you.

 

And of course there is always the Search option itself.

 

 

[Elliswaterton]

Perfect. Sorry no, I don’t know if he was defiantly in the army but there is a record of service for him on ancestry (if I have the right one) 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Elliswaterton said:

Sorry no, I don’t know if he was defiantly in the army but there is a record of service for him on ancestry (if I have the right one) 

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

It would be a good idea to tell us what you already know

 

For those like myself who don't have a subscription access to Ancestry can you be a bit more forthcoming - otherwise you are rather limiting the number of people who can potentially help you.

 

Thanks,

Peter

[George Rayner]

As Peter asks a little more information will help the search especially where GWF members don't hold subscriptions to sites but, like Peter, have access to lots of other things.

 

Can I ask was his wife Mary Christine Croft and with a child named Emily?

 

Or is that the one you have in the family tree and are curious/dubious about?

 

George

[Elliswaterton]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

 

 

For those like myself who don't have a subscription access to Ancestry can you be a bit more forthcoming - otherwise you are rather limiting the number of people who can potentially help you.

 

Thanks,

Peter

 

3 hours ago, George Rayner said:

As Peter asks a little more information will help the search especially where GWF members don't hold subscriptions to sites but, like Peter, have access to lots of other things.

 

Can I ask was his wife Mary Christine Croft and with a child named Emily?

 

Or is that the one you have in the family tree and are curious/dubious about?

 

George

Yes that’s correct and that’s as much as I know 

[PRC]

17 hours ago, Elliswaterton said:

I don’t know if he was defiantly in the army but there is a record of service for him on ancestry

 

Ok last chance to progress this - and believe me I really would like to help, but I can't mind read

 

You say you think you've found a record of service for him on Ancestry, but you don't tell us any details. I can't currently see anything likely on FindMyPast but there could be a whole host of reasons for that. The nearest I could see was an Edward BIGNAL who flits back and forth between Kent and Essex on his personal details, but was already married by the time he joined up, so there were no parent listed. FindMyPast is down for me at the moment so can't check wifes name but I do remember there being a lot of children.

 

A Mary Christina Croft married an Edward BignEll in the Dartford District of Kent in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1903. That couple appear to be on the 1911 Census of England & Wales living at Habitation Road in the parish of Erith, (Census enumerator) or Belvedere, Pastofore(?), Kent, (signed declaration). A quick Google search tells me there was a Habitation Road in Belvedere, and Belvedere is to the west of Erith.  Mary, who possibly completed the census return, was then aged 24 and born Hastings. Edward, who was aged 27 and a Hawker, was born Brompton, Kent. The census record shows the couple have been married 7 years and have had 4 children, of which 2 were then alive. The two living were Emma, aged 6, born Kingsdown, Kent and Annie, aged 3 and born Belvedere.

 

A check of the General Registrars Office Index of births for England & Wales shows at least 9 children registered with the surname Bignell and mothers' maiden name Croft. All were registered in the Dartford District of Kent in a time frame likely to make them children of that Edward and Mary.

Q2 1906 Mary Frances Bignell – may be a coincidence but a Mary Frances Bignell aged under 1, death registered Q3 1906, Dartford District.

Q4 1907 Annie Bignell, (ties in with 1911 Census)

Q1 1910 Phyllis Bignell, possible co-incidence, but Phyllis Bignell aged under 1, death registered Dartford District Q1 1910.

Q1 1912 Edward Bignell – may be coincidence but when the death of an Edward Bignell was registered in the Greenwich District Q4 1976, date of birth given as 18th February 1912.

Q2 1914 Thomas Bignell – may be a coincidence, but when the death of a Thomas Bignell was recorded in the Dartford District Q3 1975, date of birth was given as 21st March 1914.

(You had 42 days after the event to register the birth)

Q2 1919 Phoebe Bignell – possible – the death of a 19 year old Phoebe Bignell was recorded in the Maidstone District of Kent in Q1 1939.

Q1 1922 Elvina Bignell

Q1 1924 Nellie Bignell

Q2 1926 Phyllis Bignell

 

There is no obvious birth record for an Emily\Emma Bignell, Bignall or Croft in Kent in the right period.

 

It's borderline, but father Edward might still have been serving at the time of Phoebes' birth, if the right family has been identified. In that case fathers occupation on the birth certificate should show a minimum of rank and regiment\corps, and sometimes much more. Could also be a co-incidence that there is a gap from 1914 to 1919 if it is all one family, given the age gaps between all the other children. May mean nothing or could be an indicator that he was serving in a Theatre of War where leave to the UK wasn't an option, or that he was a prisoner of war.

 

Do any of those names ring a bell?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 8 January , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

You say you think you've found a record of service for him on Ancestry, but you don't tell us any details. I can't currently see anything likely on FindMyPast but there could be a whole host of reasons for that. The nearest I could see was an Edward BIGNAL who flits back and forth between Kent and Essex on his personal details, but was already married by the time he joined up, so there were no parent listed. FindMyPast is down for me at the moment so can't check wifes name but I do remember there being a lot of children.

Peter

 

I think this is the correct Edward Bignal. According to Ancestry his wife's name is Mary Christine Croft, and there are six children named Emily, Annie, Edward, Thomas, Julia Mary, and Phoebe, so all this ties in with what you have found.

 

Name:	Edward Bignal
Gender:	Male
Birth Date:	abt 1883
Enlistment Age:	35
Marriage Date:	25 Dec 1903
Marriage Place:	Crayford
Document Year:	1918
Residence Place:	Mimora Glen Tho Ave Thundersley Essex
Regimental Number:	208775
Regiment Name:	Royal Garrison Artillery

 

His service record is incredibly difficult to read, but Emily seems to have been born in Kingsdown(?), Annie, Edward and Thomas seem to have been born in Erish(?), and I can't read the other two. No date of birth for Emily, but the others are:

Annie 30 October 1907

Edward 18 February 1912

Thomas 21 March 1914

Julia Mary 29 ? 1916

Phoebe 24 April 1919

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

He appears to have been deemed to be a deserter on 22 July 1919 from Trengantle Camp, and was still missing on 13 August 1919 when a Court of Inquiry was held. I'm also not seeing a match for him in the Medal Rolls either, so presumably no overseas service. I assume that if he had served overseas but had deserted he would have still shown up in the rolls with an appropriate notation.

 

 

Edited 8 January , 2021 by Tawhiri

[PRC]

33 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

I think this is the correct Edward Bignal. According to Ancestry his wife's name is Mary Christine Croft, and there are six children named, Emily, Annie, Edward, Thomas, Julia Mary, and Phoebe, so all this ties in with what you have found.

 

Tawhiri - thank you very much for checking.

 

Fingers crossed FindMyPast is back up now. My first thought was to make a comparison of the signature on the 1911 Census of England & Wales.

 

(Image courtesy of Genes Reunited)

 

with that on the service papers for 208775 Edward Bignal, Royal Garrison Artillery. But when I went to check that out I see it has been signed "X" his mark. That may explain the variety of spellings on offer. And taking another look at the census declaration made me realise the family was living in a caravan, which is probably why the address isn't too precise.

 

The relevant part of his service records covering marriage and children really does seem to tie in, (well with the exception of Julia Mary, but I'll come back to that).

 

(Image courtesy FindMy Past).

 

Note no date of birth is given for Emily .

 

The Civil parishes of Crayford, Kingsdown and Erith (including Beveldere) all fall with the Dartford Civil Registration District.

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/dartford.html

 

Apologies for missing Julia - the source I was using was Genes Reunited as a quick way to also pick up the children born pre August 1911. Unfortunately they have transcribed the mothers' maiden name as "Groft" The birth of Julia Mary was recorded in the Rochford District of Essex, (which included Southend) in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1916.

 

Hopefully we are now cooking on gas

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 8 January , 2021 by PRC
Add image source acknowledgement

[Tawhiri]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Apologies for missing Julia - the source I was using was Genes Reunited as a quick way to also pick up the children born pre August 1911. Unfortunately they have transcribed the mothers' maiden name as "Groft" The birth of Julia Mary was recorded in the Rochford District of Essex, (which included Southend) in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1916.

I was tempted to go with 29 May 1916 for the birth of Julia Mary after looking closely at the handwriting, but wasn't prepared to commit to it. I don't think the month is a 6 when you compare it to the way the 6 is formed in 1916, and neither is it a 7, 8, or 9. May would certainly fit with a lateish birth registration at the start of the third quarter of the year.

[PRC]

21 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

I was tempted to go with 29 May 1916 for the birth of Julia Mary after looking closely at the handwriting, but wasn't prepared to commit to it. I don't think the month is a 6 when you compare it to the way the 6 is formed in 1916, and neither is it a 7, 8, or 9. May would certainly fit with a lateish birth registration at the start of the third quarter of the year.

 

Looks like our posts crossed on the extracts from his service record - still OP has the best of Ancestry and FindMyPast to choose from

 

I'm obviously more grumpy and less focused to day as I missed the potential discrepancy between the date of birth and the period of registration as well. I agree with you the month 5 is the best fit. Although the formation of the number "5" is different from the "5" in the marriage date, I think that is down to having to scrunch a lot of information in too small a box.

 

I could not see a likely marriage or death for a Julia Mary Bignall \ Bignall \ Bignal, but there is one in the Dartford District in Q2 1935 for a Julia Bignell to a George Croney. It may be a co-incidence but on the 1939 register there is a married Julia M. Croney, born 29th May 1916, and carrying out unpaid domestic duties as the second person in the household at 42, Cross Street, Erith. First person in the household, and most likely her husband, was a George, a Lorry Driver \ General Labourer, born 23rd August 1912. There are also two officially closed entries - most likely their young children. A check of the GRO index of births in England & Wales shows 8 children registered with the surname Corney, mothers' maiden Bignell, and all in the Dartford district. They run from 1935 to 1953. The birth of 2 girls and a boy were registered before the 1939 register was taken, and despite the tape covering the relevant line on the document I'd say the fourth person in the household is likely to be the youngest of the three judging from what can be seen of the letter formation and it's relative position. There are no obvious deaths in Kent to account for either of the other two. However there are three officially closed entries for the household of Edward & Mary Bignell. While most likely that is their three youngest children, one could be a grandchild staying with them.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

P.S - don't want to go too far away from the Great War period in case the admins see it as becoming a purely genealogy thread rather than dealing with the Great War service of Edward. Just waiting for @Elliswaterton to come back and confirm we are looking at the right man.

 

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Looks like our posts crossed on the extracts from his service record - still OP has the best of Ancestry and FindMyPast to choose from

 

Peter

 

Yes, sorry about that. I was struggling with formatting issues and embedded tables that I couldn't see when I originally posted and it took awhile to resolve and to add all the information that I wanted to. You must have posted around the time I finally got everything resolved.

 

He doesn't seem to have qualified for any medals, presumably because he had no overseas service, although I'm assuming even if he had served overseas he would have forfeited any medals following his desertion in July 1919.

 

 

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Yes, sorry about that.

 

Nothing to be sorry about unless you were deliberately trying to make me feel like I'd lost my marbles - I was fairly sure that the picture attachment wasn't there from you when I posted

 

Still you can see the difference in the resolution of the image on FindMyPast versus Ancestry. Most of the time it doesn't really matter but sometimes the bleed through on Ancestry can make it really hard to decipher. Strangely enough the image quality on Fold3 in my experience tends to be the best of the lot.  Considering they and Ancestry are owned by the same company, and may even be presenting the same image file retrieved from the same server, it shows you how easily the quality could be upgraded.

 

I've not looked at the file beyond the personal details yet for Edward Bignal as I was waiting for confirmation this is the right family.

 

35 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

He doesn't seem to have qualified for any medals, presumably because he had no overseas service, although I'm assuming even if he had served overseas he would have forfeited any medals following his desertion in July 1919.

 

I don't know what the situation was with the desertion after the end of the qualifying period in question - in some circumstances medal entitlement initially forfeited as a result of desertion were re-instated as a result of a subsequent Army Order. However by July 1919 the Victory Medal and British War Medal rolls were going through and ribbons were being issued, so I suspect his absence from the roll is more a reflection that he didn't qualify for any, rather than he did but he forfeited them. Obviously process may vary but I've across many entries over the years for men whose medals were forfeited and MiC's have been annotated accordingly. The Depot covering the Royal Garrison Artillery may have done it's own thing, but I would have thought it made sense to keep a note of these things so subsequent queries could be dealt with more efficiently.

 

My understanding is that men who were absent for more than two weeks would then appear in the Absentees and Deserters Lists in the Police Gazette. Just tried a search of that on FMP but have drawn a blank.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[George Rayner]

Would the birth of Anna, Edward and Thomas be Erith? not Erish? perhaps

 

George

[George Rayner]

This appears to be a definitive list of the family-Ancestry tree

Mary Christina Croft 1886–1955

Emma Bignell 1905–

Annie Bignell 1907–1955

Edward Bignell 1912–1976

Thomas Bignal 1914–1975

Julia Mary Bignell 1916–1979

Phoebe Bignell 1919–1939

Nellie Bignall 1924–1991

Private

Private

The last two may be the eldest two from their position on the tree

 

And I agree with Tawhiri

signed on 1917

Called up 1918

Deserted 1919

No active service

Attestation on both Ancestry and FMP which we have accessed-nothing in FWR though or a quick scan of newspapers in FMP for any family members

 

OP last logged in 16 hours ago-so may be due another visit!

 

George

 

 

[Elliswaterton]

Sorry guys I don’t really know much I just have this pinned to his name on my tree. ancestry suggested it but im unsure. I know his wife is Mary Croft and  they had quite a few children including my grandads mum 

[Steviebullsatatter]

On 08/01/2021 at 15:09, PRC said:

 

Ok last chance to progress this - and believe me I really would like to help, but I can't mind read

 

You say you think you've found a record of service for him on Ancestry, but you don't tell us any details. I can't currently see anything likely on FindMyPast but there could be a whole host of reasons for that. The nearest I could see was an Edward BIGNAL who flits back and forth between Kent and Essex on his personal details, but was already married by the time he joined up, so there were no parent listed. FindMyPast is down for me at the moment so can't check wifes name but I do remember there being a lot of children.

 

A Mary Christina Croft married an Edward BignEll in the Dartford District of Kent in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1903. That couple appear to be on the 1911 Census of England & Wales living at Habitation Road in the parish of Erith, (Census enumerator) or Belvedere, Pastofore(?), Kent, (signed declaration). A quick Google search tells me there was a Habitation Road in Belvedere, and Belvedere is to the west of Erith.  Mary, who possibly completed the census return, was then aged 24 and born Hastings. Edward, who was aged 27 and a Hawker, was born Brompton, Kent. The census record shows the couple have been married 7 years and have had 4 children, of which 2 were then alive. The two living were Emma, aged 6, born Kingsdown, Kent and Annie, aged 3 and born Belvedere.

 

A check of the General Registrars Office Index of births for England & Wales shows at least 9 children registered with the surname Bignell and mothers' maiden name Croft. All were registered in the Dartford District of Kent in a time frame likely to make them children of that Edward and Mary.

Q2 1906 Mary Frances Bignell – may be a coincidence but a Mary Frances Bignell aged under 1, death registered Q3 1906, Dartford District.

Q4 1907 Annie Bignell, (ties in with 1911 Census)

Q1 1910 Phyllis Bignell, possible co-incidence, but Phyllis Bignell aged under 1, death registered Dartford District Q1 1910.

Q1 1912 Edward Bignell – may be coincidence but when the death of an Edward Bignell was registered in the Greenwich District Q4 1976, date of birth given as 18th February 1912.

Q2 1914 Thomas Bignell – may be a coincidence, but when the death of a Thomas Bignell was recorded in the Dartford District Q3 1975, date of birth was given as 21st March 1914.

(You had 42 days after the event to register the birth)

Q2 1919 Phoebe Bignell – possible – the death of a 19 year old Phoebe Bignell was recorded in the Maidstone District of Kent in Q1 1939.

Q1 1922 Elvina Bignell

Q1 1924 Nellie Bignell

Q2 1926 Phyllis Bignell

 

There is no obvious birth record for an Emily\Emma Bignell, Bignall or Croft in Kent in the right period.

 

It's borderline, but father Edward might still have been serving at the time of Phoebes' birth, if the right family has been identified. In that case fathers occupation on the birth certificate should show a minimum of rank and regiment\corps, and sometimes much more. Could also be a co-incidence that there is a gap from 1914 to 1919 if it is all one family, given the age gaps between all the other children. May mean nothing or could be an indicator that he was serving in a Theatre of War where leave to the UK wasn't an option, or that he was a prisoner of war.

 

Do any of those names ring a bell?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Habitation rd was on the thamesmead marshes .

A traveller community lived there.

I am from Erith and I know a lot of the descendants of the marshes