Pte John Farrell KLR casualty - help to identify him please

[davidbohl]

Private John Farrell #10630 King's Liverpool CWGC

My hunt for this chap was curtailed when the research facilities in library closed yesterday.

Nothing much about him, just his soldiers effects went to his Auntie Winifred Frane(nee Farrell, married 1885 to Martin Frane)

Thanks

Dave

 

From FamilySearch 1911

 

 

 

[Mark1959]

Winifred married Martin Frane on 13/9/1885. The Roman Catholic register shows her father was Edward

Found the 1891 census for Martin and Winifred at effectively same address as 1911 - Frayne. This puts her as older saying she is 32. 

She died on 11/12/19 I think. Her son Edward was KIA 16-19/5/1915. He was 10497 KLR - Pension card. 

Working on theories but nothing fits to date. 

[davidbohl]

Thanks Mark, that was the exact problem I was a having, the differing dob's and the Frayne contingent. In the 1914 Gores Martin Frayne was a pub manager.

 

I did find this couple in 1901 but it doesn't look like an Auntie

From FamilySearch

 

 

 

[Mark1959]

Possible link

KLR 769 Enlisted 1882. Died 1887 in service, Father Edward. Mother Winifred. Elder Sister Winifred. Elder brother Edward. He is born 1861. Address in doc is in same block in Mason St that Winifred appears in in 1891 and 1911, 

Winifred's death on the pension card is 1919 and age showing as 66. The 1881 census that puts them in same addess indicates Winifred 27, Edward 24 and John 20. 

Need to find a marriage for either John or Edward. No sign of any further male siblings. No indication in service docs that John married.

Think Martin Frane probably died in 1913. TBC

Edited 6 January , 2021 by Mark1959

[davidbohl]

The John(20) Farrell was a bricklayer on that 1881 Census, Winifred is 27.

There is a 1901 record that has him possibly a masons labourer, same trade.

There is a 19 year old son called John who would therefore have a Auntie Winifred.

 

 

[Mark1959]

Not sure we are going to get a positive evidence based story here. Very difficult to confirm anything for certain. 

[George Rayner]

I thought that birth was 1866 but you have much more experience of what the clerks put on the records than me!

sourced from Fold3 with thanks

 

George

[George Rayner]

Is this them? Census 1881 in Ancestry

1881 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk

 

 

Name: John Farrell

Age:16

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865

Relationship to Head: Son

Father: Phillip Farrell

Mother: Bridget Farrell

Gender: Male

Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liverpool

County/Island:  Lancashire

Country: England

Street Address:18 Court 1 House

Education:
Employment status:

View image

Occupation: General Laborer

Registration District: Liverpool

Sub registration district: St Martin

ED, institution, or vessel:

11Neighbors:View others on pagePiece:3594Folio:125Page Number:31Household Members:

Name	Age
Phillip Farrell	40
Bridget Farrell	35
John Farrell	16
Winifred Farrell	12
Mary Farrell	9
Winifred Joyce	80

 

 

George

[Mark1959]

George. Think you are correct. re the Pension card. Apologies. Think this puzzle may be impossible to resolve with on line resources.

[George Rayner]

Working together!

I'm trying to follow that census family to see if Philip had a sister Winifred at the moment

 

George

[davidbohl]

Mark/George, thanks for pursuing this one, it's hard to leave these poor chaps in limbo isn't it?

The pension card age looks over-scribed from 60 to 66,  sixty matches the Freebmd dates.

The "Pleasant View" in Edge Hill is not documented in the 1914 Gores, it was off Binns Rd (as in Meccano)

Dave

 

 

Births Jun 1858
Farrell	Winifred		W Derby

 

Deaths Dec 1919
Frane	Winifred	60	W.Derby

 

[Mark1959]

I am having a break from it to clear my mind and come back to it again and perhaps get a new path to the answer

[davidbohl]

Don't blame you Mark, I have to potter around the garden.

The pension card that George posted states Winifred Frane is the mother, am I correct in saying the other document(s) say she was Auntie ?

If so are we looking at John Farrell being born before she married in 1885?

Dave

 

[davidbohl]

On 07/01/2021 at 09:08, Mark1959 said:

Think this puzzle may be impossible to resolve with on line resources

 

I decided to come back to this one, and may have cracked it

Dave

 

Just to recap:- 

 

Winifred Frane

Soldiers Effects of Pte John Farrell went to his Aunt Winifred Frane, no pension as she died in 1919

On the 1881 Census, as Winifred Farrell, she is with father Edward and mother, also Winifred, at House 8, 7 Court, Mason St

Also in the house are brothers Edward, and John who will become the father of Pte John Farrell.

She married 1885, and stated her father was Edward

 

Marriages Sep 1885
FARRELL	Winifred	Martin Frane	W. Derby

 

 

On the 1891 Census, she is with spouse Martin Frayne, children Susan, Edward and Mary

(Winifred's son Edward died in 1915, #10497 KLR for which she also received his Soldiers Effects and Pension)

 

John Farrell Snr

On the 1901 Census John snr(39) is with wife Margaret Ann(39), children Thomas(22) and John(19) at 23 Westmoreland Place

 

Their son John was born in 1881

 

Name:	Joannes Farrell [John Farrell]
Age:	0
Birth Date:	11 Aug 1881
Baptism Date:	27 Aug 1881
Baptism Place:	Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father:	Joannis Farrell
Mother:	Margarita Annae Doyle

 

both parents died, this is why Soldiers Effects went to his Aunt Winifred

 

Deaths Mar 1903
Farrell	Margaret Ann	41	Liverpool

 

Deaths Jun 1909
FARRELL	John	48	W. Derby

 

No trace of John or Thomas in 1911, where could they be ?

 

Service Record comparison:-
As a benchmark Pte #10628 Briscoe attested and posted 6th Aug 1914, mobilized Seaforth 8th Aug. He stated he was formerly 1st King's.