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Remembered Today:

German infantryman captured at Mt Kemmel


Christina Holstein

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I'm wondering if Forum brains can help a French friend with research about his grandfather.

 

Johannes Lenhard, born 21.2.1891, was from eastern Moselle, which was German after 1870 so he served in the German army. He was serving with IR140 when captured by the British at Mt Kemmel and transferred to a POW camp.

 

We've both searched the Int. RC website but found no trace of him. I've tried various spellings of the surname but that hasn't worked either. How would Pierre find out where his grandfather was interned?

 

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

 

Christina

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Hello Christina,

 

An exact place of birth would be really helpful for a search. I assume Johannes may have been one of the first names, so he may be known under another one.

 

Jan

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As far as I can tell there is no-one by the name of Lenhard who served with IR 140 in the ICRC database. A Johannes Lenhard isn‘t recorded in the Verlustlisten nor anyone with a „near“ name. A search on his dob is also negative.

Is it known in which year he was captured?

Charlie

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Hello Jan and Charlie, thanks for the replies.

 

He was born on 21.2.1891 in Singlingen, Kreis Gr. Rederschingen.

He was called up in 1911 and did his military service with IR81. 

Sorry I forgot to put in the date of capture - it was August 1918.

Hope this helps.

Christina

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Strange, no one with an even remotely similar name in the Verlustlisten...

 

IR 140 was near Outtersteene in August 1918.

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49 minutes ago, Christina Holstein said:

He was called up in 1911 and did his military service with IR81.

Not IR 140?

 

George 

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Pal @gboehm researched a „French“ relative who served with the German army. He received some records from the French archives. Perhaps it would be a an idea to pm him if he doesn‘t respond to the @

 

 

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The "registres de matricules" are usually empty concerning soldiers from Alsace-Lorraine-Moselle. They will usually only say "Service dans l'armée l'allemande". These records were created at the end of WW1 and will have no details of service etc... 

 

As for the german archives, most documents concerning the soldiers of the german Heer were destroyed during the Potsdam bombings in 1945. 

 

The "dossier du combatant" is the best place to look in this case. 

The Bas-Rhin department has indexed them all: http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/rechercher/recherches-specialisees/anciens-combattants/

However, the Moselle department doesn't seem to have done the same. So the best thing would be to contact them and ask them if they have the "Dossier d'anciens combatants" These records usually contain information on service during the war, where someone was interned... etc.

 

That's the Moselle website:

http://www.archives57.com/

 

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No listing for his name under the German spelling for his birthplace either. Considering when he was captured it is possible that the listing never made it through to be published. Records are spotty at the end of the war. It should have probably been listed some time in October or later. 

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That's extremely interesting and a bit odd. Thank you all very much. It's possible that Pierre has already researched the Moselle website but I'll find out and suggest it if not. I imagine he was thinking that the information would be in the UK but I thought that as he was captured so close to the Armistice that he might have remained in France.

 

Military service - yes, in IR81, not IR140. Pierre doesn't have an explanation.

 

Thanks for the terrific help,

 

 

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37 minutes ago, gboehm said:

As for the german archives, most documents concerning the soldiers of the german Heer were destroyed during the Potsdam bombings in 1945. 

I´d like to specify:

 most of the documents related to or concerning the PRUSSIAN army and those troops that had given up their military sovereignty to Prussia got lost in the Potsdam bombings. As they formed the largest part of the GERMAN army, the above statement is correct, but might lead to irritations, as eg the biographical information about the soldiers serving with BAVARIAN and WURTTEMBERG units are still available. Some of the SAXONS are as well, as far as I know (mostly officers).

GreyC

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1 hour ago, GreyC said:

I´d like to specify:

 most of the documents related to or concerning the PRUSSIAN army and those troops that had given up their military sovereignty to Prussia got lost in the Potsdam bombings. As they formed the largest part of the GERMAN army, the above statement is correct, but might lead to irritations, as eg the biographical information about the soldiers serving with BAVARIAN and WURTTEMBERG units are still available. Some of the SAXONS are as well, as far as I know (mostly officers).

GreyC

 

Baden's military archives are also very much still available, but Saxon personnel files are lost, as well as most of the infantry files (war diaries etc).

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1 hour ago, Christina Holstein said:

That's extremely interesting and a bit odd. Thank you all very much. It's possible that Pierre has already researched the Moselle website but I'll find out and suggest it if not. I imagine he was thinking that the information would be in the UK but I thought that as he was captured so close to the Armistice that he might have remained in France.

 

Military service - yes, in IR81, not IR140. Pierre doesn't have an explanation.

 

Thanks for the terrific help,

 

 

 

The inhabitants of Alsace Lorraine were not completely trusted and thus a lot of them served in units from other parts of Prussia (and also mainly on the Eastern Front).

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1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

but Saxon personnel files are lost, as well as most of the infantry files (war diaries etc).

Thanks,

I just know from a collector who found data on officers in the Saxon State Archives, must not have been Stammrollen, could have been pension records or the like.

GreYC

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Whatever regiment he may have served with, if someone of that name was captured by the British in August 1918, wouldn't there be a British record of it and a note of what happened?

 

Christina

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58 minutes ago, Christina Holstein said:

if someone of that name was captured by the British in August 1918, wouldn't there be a British record of it and a note of what happened?

The only records are with the ICRC, which only give Name, place of capture an places of internment. It is possible that the relevant British War Diaries may mention that x number of German soldiers were taken PoW on a certain date but are very unlikely to mention their names. Without a specific date a next to impossible task. 
It seems to me that it is unusual that there is neither a German nor a British record of his being a PoW, what evidence is there of being a PoW? I have also checked the Vermisstenliste which sometimes records PoWs which are not recorded in the Verlustlisten - again a negative result.

 

Charlie

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Thanks, Charlie.

 

I will ask Pierre for the evidence that he was a POW but as he knew his grandfather I suppose that is what he was told. I'll check. It's certainly odd that his name doesn't appear anywhere.

 

Christina

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3 hours ago, charlie2 said:

The only records are with the ICRC, which only give Name, place of capture an places of internment. It is possible that the relevant British War Diaries may mention that x number of German soldiers were taken PoW on a certain date but are very unlikely to mention their names. Without a specific date a next to impossible task. 
It seems to me that it is unusual that there is neither a German nor a British record of his being a PoW, what evidence is there of being a PoW? I have also checked the Vermisstenliste which sometimes records PoWs which are not recorded in the Verlustlisten - again a negative result.

 

Charlie

 

One can sometimes find elaborate POW interviews in divisional/corps war diaries appendices. But that's looking for a needle in a mound of needles of course...

3 hours ago, Christina Holstein said:

Thanks, Charlie.

 

I will ask Pierre for the evidence that he was a POW but as he knew his grandfather I suppose that is what he was told. I'll check. It's certainly odd that his name doesn't appear anywhere.

 

Christina

 

Perhaps he deserted? There was, I believe, a special option given to German soldiers from Alsace-Lorraine that came to the allied lines. (but this is something I believe to have read somewhere, so I may be not completely correct)

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Hello everybody,

 

8 August 1918 was the begining of the end for german army and desertion groves up in some parts of the western front after the collapse of Friedensturm on 15 of July. Pehaps Jean Lenhart, from Gros Rederching seized the occasion to save his life after 4 years of war on Deutsche Dienst ?

 

Two other hypotheses to explore :

- captured by the Belgian army Was Outtersteene far from Belgian lines?

- captured by UK, JL claimed his Lorraine origine and was transfered to French prevote autorities for checking his situation.

On this point, I don't know what was the UK policy when a German soldier born in Elsass or Lothringen, prisonner of UK forces,  request his transfert to French autorities. I suppose that it was rather scarce before 1918, but a lot of units with soldiers from Alsace and Lorraine were transfered from Russian front to West for the German 1918 offensives.

 

yours sincerely 

Gabelou 

 

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Oh dear, you've all been working so hard for Pierre and on further questioning it turns out that the info he gave me actually applies to his OTHER grandfather, Joseph Paul!

 

It was his maternal grandfather, Joseph Paul, born 1.7.1896 at Gr. Rederschingen who was serving with with IR 140 when he was captured by the British at Mount Kemmel on 18.8.1918.

He had previously  served with IR70 in Russia.

 

This info about the capture comes from the request for a monetary grant that Joseph Paul made as an ancien combattant. The form he filled in also states that his last camp was St. Rembert, apparently a camp for men from Alsace and Lorraine, but gives no date of transfer. He was freed on 27.1 1919.

What Pierre wants to know is where he was interned between capture and St. Rembert.

 

I hope I've finally got the right info. Such information as Pierre has comes from the Archives de la Moselle.

 

Now I've got the right name I've checked the Red Cross archives but found nothing. I tried reversing his name in the faint hope that he might have been listed under Joseph/Josef rather than Paul.  

 

Jan's comment about desertion could possibly explain why no one in the Lenhard family seems to know anything about Johannes Lenhard's military career, or even if he had one, and why the Archives de Metz are silent.

 

Thank you all so much. Humble apologies for misleading everyone and getting you to spend time in a wild goose chase.

 

Christina

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It was a pleasure Christina.

Your datas confirm my suggestion. J.P.L. served in Russia (IR 70) before being transfered with IR 140 to the western front and seize - voluntary or not- the opportunity to leave the German service.

Gabelou

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Christina,

 

He is in the Verlustlisten as missing: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/9279405 (you have to scroll a bit up to see the entry).

 

Remarkably, he pops up in the post-war Vermisstenlisten as well: https://des.genealogy.net/search/show/9960070 (and here you have date and place of capture)

 

Jan

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Tangentially, my 2nd great grandfather likely served in IR140 in the 1890s, before immigrating to America in 1901 (along with his young son Max who was later killed fighting with the AEF). 

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The camp was at Saint-Rambert-sur-Loire (Now Saint-Juste-Saint-Rambert) , one of three camps for Elsace-Lorraine POW's in France.

It's the large building in the foreground

674461404_rambert93442.jpg.6e7d1820f62dd5dd106fe250eebca9df.jpg

https://www.le-pays.fr/saint-just-saint-rambert-42170/actualites/lactuelle-maison-de-retraite-de-la-loire-a-abrite-un-camp-de-soldats-en-1915_11698192/#refresh

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