Need help identifying a WW1 Royal Marine

[MarthaB]

Dear all, 

 

Attached a couple of pictures of a relative, Henry William? Taylor.  From the little research we have done so far it looks like he was first a lieutenant and then a captain in the Royal Marines in WW1, but we know nothing else. Particularly perplexing is his regiment cap badge - current best guess is Ox and Bucks but he was born in Warwickshire and later lived in Torquay....   I have attached a picture showing the two cap badges and a less good resolution of the cuff.

 

Thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

Royal Marines Light Infantry officers and warrant officer class 1 badge.

 

 

Edited 3 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MarthaB]

Gosh, thanks Frogsmile, is that the one with the horn at the top?

Edited 3 January , 2021 by MarthaB

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, MarthaB said:

Gosh, thanks Frogsmile, is that the one with the horn at the top?

Yes, that’s right Martha.  Before the mid 1920s, when they merged, the Royal Marines were divided into two parts, the Royal Marines Light Infantry (scarlet tunics) and the Royal Marines Artillery (blue tunics).  The RMLI formed ships infantry detachments on the capital ships, and the RMA formed gun crews for a select proportion of deck armament.  Traditionally they manned X-turret if I recall correctly.  Each of them had their own discrete cap badge.  During WW1 the RMLI also formed battalions of infantry alongside Royal Navy mobilised reservists to form an infantry Division to fight on land, the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division, which fought under Army command.

Edited 3 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MarthaB]

Perfect, thank you. That would explain why we suspected the rather smart dress uniform photo we had (complete with sword and universal pattern helmet), was likely red.  Warrant officers seem a mixed bag!  I was a 16th century historian, so this is outside my area.

 

Thanks again, 

 

Martha

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, MarthaB said:

Perfect, thank you. That would explain why we suspected the rather smart dress uniform photo we had (complete with sword and universal pattern helmet), was likely red.  Warrant officers seem a mixed bag!  I was a 16th century historian, so this is outside my area.

 

Thanks again, 

 

Martha

There was a big difference between the status and employment of long-standing naval warrant officers and those adopted by the Army (and similarly Royal Marines) under an entirely different concept from the 1880s onward.  I can explain this here or via PM if you would like.

[MarthaB]

PM would be great if that's OK. Let's not burden others with what they know already

[RNCVR]

In the first photo he is wearing a medal ribbon & it could be either the RN Long Service medal ribbon(if he had 15 yrs service in the RMLI ranks), or the 1900 China campaign medal ribbon.

 

In the 2nd photo he appears to have two medal ribbons but they are too blurry to make out.

 

Do you have a Service Record for Henry Taylor?

[MarthaB]

Nothing at all sadly RNCVR - would love a service record. Problem may be we believe he died in the late 50s, so might possibly have had a WW2 home front role. Archivist at NA online suggested that this might mean his whole record would be through MoD request. 

Edited 3 January , 2021 by MarthaB

[RNCVR]

If he was circa 1WW the NA should have his RMLI file in the ADM series.

If Horatio picks up on this he might be able to assist. He knows his way around the NA files very well.

 

Perhaps if you might be able to give us his approx years of service this would assist.

He also would have had a RMLI Official number that woul help as well.

 

 

[horatio2]

Could this be your man?? - Henry Morris (Maurice as an officer) TAYLOR. Served as Portsmouth/4594. (QMS, RMLI)) and commissioned Lieutenant/Captain.

Born 1 Sep 1870 - p.o.b. Saltley, Birmingham, Warwicks. 3 Records at Kew:-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14600068

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7743858

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8118091

 

Earned 1914 Star (not Clasp) with Howe Bn RND at Antwerp. 1914 Star to R.N.D. Alnwick, Victory & British War Medals to Self.

Died 30 Apr 1953.

There is no other RMLI officer Henry TAYLOR on the WW1 RM Medal Roll.

 

 

[MarthaB]

Hi Horatio, 

 

I had been digging around the NA and this was the only possible I could find as well... The Morris puzzles all of us, but it's top of the 'possible' pile. Thank you so much for your help.  Might run the same with Harry, in case, but I reckon the NA search might have allowed for that.  Whoever HM was, it makes me smile that the 'Maurice' was on promotion ;-) Purely as an aside, another great photo.

[horatio2]

No officer Harry TAYLOR on the Medal Roll.

[RNCVR]

The photo you have just posted Martha.  -  his medal is the RN Long service medal, enlarge it a bit & you will see Edward VII effigy.

[RNCVR]

There appears to be 4 inverted gold chevrons on his right sleeve almost obscured behind his helmet. Presumably rank insignia of QMS.

[MarthaB]

Dear all, 

 

Thank you so much for this, I really appreciate your time. RNCVR's info chimes beautifully with what Frogsmile has kindly shared with me about the bizarre world of warrant officers. Even if I never turn up his actual record (notwithstanding the possible Henry Morris), this is wonderful background info. He lived to a ripe old age by the sea, and we have tracked him down in some family photos, but not many.   If anyone finds anything else, do feel free to chip in. 

 

Martha. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

There appears to be 4 inverted gold chevrons on his right sleeve almost obscured behind his helmet. Presumably rank insignia of QMS.

Yes, that’s correct.  He’s also holding the formerly RMA pattern, ball topped universal helmet, adopted by the newly consolidated corps of Royal Marines from 1923.

Edited 3 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MarthaB]

So that would suggest he continued service past WW1?  Interesting. 

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, MarthaB said:

So that would suggest he continued service past WW1?  Interesting. 

Yes, unless he was a member of the RMA as a QMS before 1923.  The RMLI had a spiked top helmet typical of infantry regiments.

Edited 3 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MarthaB]

On 03/01/2021 at 18:30, RNCVR said:

There appears to be 4 inverted gold chevrons on his right sleeve almost obscured behind his helmet. Presumably rank insignia of QMS.

 

On 03/01/2021 at 17:47, horatio2 said:

Could this be your man?? - Henry Morris (Maurice as an officer) TAYLOR. Served as Portsmouth/4594. (QMS, RMLI)) and commissioned Lieutenant/Captain.

Born 1 Sep 1870 - p.o.b. Saltley, Birmingham, Warwicks. 3 Records at Kew:-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14600068

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7743858

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8118091

 

Earned 1914 Star (not Clasp) with Howe Bn RND at Antwerp. 1914 Star to R.N.D. Alnwick, Victory & British War Medals to Self.

Died 30 Apr 1953.

There is no other RMLI officer Henry TAYLOR on the WW1 RM Medal Roll.

 

 

Hints from the census we know is correct,  gives his mother's sister, let's say 'Mary X' living with young Henry.  The only Mother's maiden name 'X' we can find giving birth in the right place at the right time...gives birth to a Henry Morris. If we can make other records corroborate, this could indeed be the chap!  Thank you so much

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, MarthaB said:

 

Hints from the census we know is correct,  gives his mother's sister, let's say 'Mary X' living with young Henry.  The only Mother's maiden name 'X' we can find giving birth in the right place at the right time...gives birth to a Henry Morris. If we can make other records corroborate, this could indeed be the chap!  Thank you so much

I forgot to mention Martha that if you look behind his white helmet in the most recent photo that you posted you can just about make out his RM sergeant major (warrant officer - military style) badge of rank that was worn on the right lower sleeve only.

[58 Div Mule]

Both the Royal Marine Artillery and the Royal Marine Light Infantry adopted the Wolseley from 1912.

 

This is the headgear that we see so often on ceremonial duties to this day.

 

I have photo’s of the Zebrugge Day parade on 23 April 1922 and all ranks are clearly wearing the Wolseley.

 

I think the photo is likely to be pre WW1.

 

58 DM.

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Unfortunately the helmet alone is not enough to ascertain the date.  Before the 1923 merger the RMA had a ball top to the same helmet and their own discrete grenade badge, whereas the RMLI had the same helmet with spike top and the star badge with bugle horn superimposed as part of the badge design.  After the merger a typical compromise was reached by adopting the ball top of the RMA, but the RMLI star badge with bugle horn removed.  Thus the photo shows our subject post merger.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[58 Div Mule]

Think you’ll find the RMLI adopted the ball in 1905.

 

58 DM.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Think you’ll find the RMLI adopted the ball in 1905.

 

58 DM.

Thank you, that’s news to me, so I will check the references that I have and report back, perhaps you are right. I’ll be extremely surprised if they did though, as the ball top had hitherto been entirely associated with the artillery and ordnance Corps of the Army and Royal Marines. 

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE