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Some help with name of regiment needed if possible ...


Kaz
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I think the first photo is a younger version of the person in the second.  My thoughts are that  in the second photo the wearer has one medal which is possibly a Boer War Medal. Note also the fancy cuffs.  Any thoughts on this please?

poss JSM 2.jpg

poss JSM.jpg

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Regret cannot assist with uniform, but his medal is the Queen South Africa campaign medal.  

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Second photograph shows that the photographer was in Devenport which might be a clue.

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Yes they are the same man.  Both photos show a soldier of an English or Welsh line infantry regiment without ‘Royal’ appellation.  In the first photo he wears the tunic worn between 1880 and 1902 and the field service cap issued between 1894 and 1902.  In the second photo he has reached the rank of Corporal (2-stripes) and wears the replacement tunic introduced in 1902 and worn until the outset of WW1 in 1914.  
 

Unfortunately regimental insignia is not discernible, but if any personal details, such as home town are known it might be possible to venture an informed guess, cross referenced with the garrison at Devonport before WW1.  Two light infantry regiments in particular served there, Prince Albert’s Somerset Light Infantry and the Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry, the latter in the period straddling the 2nd Boer War, 1898-1903.  The latter had the white ‘facings’ (collar and cuffs) seen in the photo.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Brilliant! It pays to know the tiny but important differences in Uniform etc. It is great to see former service members who have specific interest in aspects of their former jobs helping others out on the Forum.  My field is Genealogy and of course I must do my background homework before I combine Photo with Person. 

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As far as I know those in the family who would have been the right age to have served in the Boer War either lived in the London area or just over the border in Monmouthshire, Wales (possibly the Welsh Line Infantry then) so I may be able to narrow things down from there.  

Thanks very much for your thoughts and comments. 

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33 minutes ago, squirrel said:

Second photograph shows that the photographer was in Devenport which might be a clue.

Thanks for that.. I  did try a while back to see if I could find out which regiments might have been posted in Devonport but not much luck. Another member has posted something about that so I will see if that helps. 

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35 minutes ago, Kaz said:

Ah great, the Queens as opposed to the Kings Medal. Thanks.

 

Kings South Africa medal a completely different ribbon Kaz.

With no clasps it could be the Queens Mediterranean medal as well, but only a very few Regiments qualified for that medal. It was awarded for troops guarding Boer prisoners on St Helena.

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The two Welsh regiments with white facings after 1881 were the South Wales Borderers and the Welsh Regiment, but by 1901 the SWB had obtained permission to return to their original grass green facings.

 

I don’t think that the Welsh or SWB were at Devonport over that period, but I will check tomorrow and report back.

 

Do not become too tied to the idea that a home town origin must be tied indelibly to a particular regiment, it was not until the decades immediately after WW1 that regiments took on a wholesale identity associated with their recruitment areas, it took a long time to bed in.  It’s perfectly feasible that someone from Wales served in an English regiment in the decades before WW1, and visa versa too.

 

If it is one of the regiments associated with Wales it has to be the Welsh Regiment, going by the tunic with post-1902 pattern, pointed (mitred) white cuffs.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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16 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

Kings South Africa medal a completely different ribbon Kaz.

With no clasps it could be the Queens Mediterranean medal as well, but only a very few Regiments qualified for that medal. It was awarded for troops guarding Boer prisoners on St Helena.

OK thanks for that.

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18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The two Welsh regiments with white facings after 1881 were the South Wales Borderers and the Welsh Regiment, but by 1901 the SWB had obtained permission to return to their original grass green facings.

 

I don’t think that the Welsh or SWB were at Devonport over that period, but I will check tomorrow and report back.

 

Do not become too tied to the idea that a home town origin must be tied indelibly to a particular regiment, it was not until the decades immediately after WW1 that regiments took on a wholesale identity associated with their recruitment areas, it took a long time to bed in.  It’s perfectly feasible that someone from Wales served in an English regiment in the decades before WW1, and visa versa too.

 

If it is one of the regiments associated with Wales it has to be the Welsh Regiment, going by the tunic with post-1902 pattern, pointed (mitred) white cuffs.

Hmmm I have opened up a can of worms!  Thanks for checking tomorrow.  Ah yes I remember my Grandad was in the Dorset Regiment but did not come from Dorset.  I do have another picture to upload, nothing to do with this though so I will upload in another post.

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With the Queen's Mediterranean Medal he was most likely a Militiaman. Being in a non-Royal regiment would place him as a member of the 3rd (Militia) Battalion of either the Northumberland Fusiliers, the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, the West Yorkshire Regiment or the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment.  Pete.

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Thank you for your comments Pete. Its good to know there are people out there who are interested enough in the subject to enable them to give up their knowledge to help others. 

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10 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

With the Queen's Mediterranean Medal he was most likely a Militiaman. Being in a non-Royal regiment would place him as a member of the 3rd (Militia) Battalion of either the Northumberland Fusiliers, the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, the West Yorkshire Regiment or the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment.  Pete.


Only two of those would likely be in white facings post 1902 (mitred cuffs) I think Pete.  From memory I recall that just the [edit] Loyal North Lancs would be.  We’d need to check the date of changes, but the Northumberland Fusiliers reverted to their previous green shade, and the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry always had the dark blue of a regiment with a Royal appellation.  Also a militia battalion is less likely (although not impossible) to be associated with Devonport Barracks as it was a duty station rather than a depot location.  How sure are we that it’s a Queen’s Mediterranean Medal? 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Just because the photographer was in Devenport does not mean the soldier was based there. He could have had his pic taken before embarking.

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9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:


Only two of those would likely be in white facings post 1902 (mitred cuffs) I think Pete.  From memory I recall that just the West York’s and Loyal North Lancs would be.  We’d need to check the date of changes, but the Northumberland Fusiliers reverted to their previous green shade, and the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry always had the dark blue of a regiment with a Royal appellation.  Also a militia battalion is less likely (although not impossible) to be associated with Devonport Barracks as it was a duty station rather than a depot location.  How sure are we that it’s a Queen’s Mediterranean Medal? 

It is either the Queen's Mediterranean Medal for garrison duty in Gibraltar, Malta or Egypt or the Queen's South Africa Medal without clasp awarded to troops guarding Prisoners of War on Saint Helena.  The ribbons of both medals were identical.  Pete.

Edited by CorporalPunishment
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1 minute ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It is either the Queen's Mediterranean Medal for garrison duty in Gibraltar, Malta or Egypt or the Queen's South Africa Medal without clasp awarded to troops guarding Prisoners of War on Saint Helena. The ribbons of both medals were identical.   Pete.

 

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1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It is either the Queen's Mediterranean Medal for garrison duty in Gibraltar, Malta or Egypt or the Queen's South Africa Medal without clasp awarded to troops guarding Prisoners of War on Malta. The medal ribbons of both were identical.   Pete.


Thanks for the reply Pete.  On balance I don’t think he’s militia for the reasons I’ve quoted, but it would be useful to see whether [edit] Loyal North Lancs Militia did deploy.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I'm making a right pig's ear of posting this morning. I meant guarding Prisoners of War on Saint Helena, not Malta. I blame last night's clearance of surplus Xmas liquids.   Pete.

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24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:


Thanks for the reply Pete.  On balance I don’t think he’s militia for the reasons I’ve quoted, but it would be useful to see whether West York’s or Loyal North Lancs Militia did deploy.

The units posted to the Mediterranean for garrison duty were the 3rd (Militia) Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers, the Royal Fusiliers, the West Yorkshire Regiment, the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, the Royal West Kent Regiment, the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, the Seaforth Highlanders and the Royal Munster Fusiliers.  Pete.

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1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The units posted to the Mediterranean for garrison duty were the 3rd (Militia) Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers, the Royal Fusiliers, the West Yorkshire Regiment, the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, the Royal West Kent Regiment, the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, the Seaforth Highlanders and the Royal Munster Fusiliers.  Pete.


The soldier in the photos has white facings, not only on pre 1902 tunic, but also post 1902 with pointed cuffs where he is wearing the medal.  Of all the regiment’s you’ve mentioned only one, the Loyal North Lancashire’s had white facings after 1902.  Ergo if he is Militia then he’d have to be from that regiment, and there’s no reason why a Militia soldier of that regiment, by default locally recruited (unlike regulars) would be at Devonport, a home-service station for regular line infantry.

 

Devonport’s ‘Raglan barracks’ was a two battalion station.  We need to ascertain which regiments were there between 1905 (when DCLI left) and 1914.  Then cross reference with medal.

 

Facings 1902:

 

Northumberland Fus = Gosling Green

Royal Fus = Dark Blue

West York’s = Buff

Royal West Kent = Dark Blue

KOYLI = Dark Blue

Seaforth Highlanders = Buff

Royal Munster Fus = Dark Blue

Loyal North Lancashire = White 

 

In 1904 the two infantry battalions in Raglan Barracks were the 2nd Bn Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry (white facings) and the 2nd Bn Devonshire Regiment (green facings).

 

 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Many thanks for all the interesting comments above from which I think I have found out who this soldier is.  So he attested as a Militiaman in Bristol on 18 December 1899 at the age of 16:  3rd Bn Glo'ster Regiment. 

Embodied 15.5.00. 

Attached to 4 Bn for duty St Helena 31.12.00. 

Disembodied 27.7.01 - 15.6.03. 

Promoted to Cpl 16.6.03. 

Promoted to Sgt 5.4.05.

Discharged 17.12.05.

 

Service Abroad: St Helena 31.12.00 - 27.7.01

Medals: South Africa 1900 - 1901

 

So once again thank you for helping tie the person to the Service Record.

Karen

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2 hours ago, Kaz said:

Many thanks for all the interesting comments above from which I think I have found out who this soldier is.  So he attested as a Militiaman in Bristol on 18 December 1899 at the age of 16:  3rd Bn Glo'ster Regiment. 

Embodied 15.5.00. 

Attached to 4 Bn for duty St Helena 31.12.00. 

Disembodied 27.7.01 - 15.6.03. 

Promoted to Cpl 16.6.03. 

Promoted to Sgt 5.4.05.

Discharged 17.12.05.

 

Service Abroad: St Helena 31.12.00 - 27.7.01

Medals: South Africa 1900 - 1901

 

So once again thank you for helping tie the person to the Service Record.

Karen


That certainly fits perfectly with the white facings in both photos Karen.  To corroborate matters perfectly I just need to try and tie one of the two Gloucestershire Regiment regular battalions with Devonport.  It’s a bit puzzling though because the Militia battalions of each regiment usually embodied (mobilised) and disembodied (demobilised) from their respective regimental depots, which in the Glosters case was Horfield Barracks, Bristol.  There would ostensibly be no reason for him to be at Devonport as a Militiaman unless he was temporarily attached to a regular battalion that was there.  Perhaps it was for his annual, fortnight’s training camp that year, which would then make sense.

 

I have been trying to track down who was at Devonport between 1905 and 1914, but it’s proving more difficult than other periods.  I don’t think the photo was taken later than 1905 anyway, and from what you’ve said 1904 fits with him being at Corporal and we know the two battalions at Devonport that year.

 

2EC71FE5-0310-49E1-A24B-06CDDA00EA30.jpeg

971B51FA-5E6B-4FD7-B84B-E61D635B7014.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Yes that is strange but I guess there could be other reasons for his being there. If you are able to shed light on it then that would be great. Don't worry if not.

Karen

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