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Lance Corporal Frank Ledbury 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards 15 Sept 1916


madgarry
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Guys, I am looking into Lance Corporal Frank Ledbury 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards KIA 15 Sept 1916, he is listed on the Thiepval memorial as is 10959 Perkins also 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, both were 4th company, interestingly they were buried by the 4th Battalion Coldstream guards at Ginchy, also buried with them were 12845 W Robbins who is now at rest in Caterpiller valley cemetery and 11251 W Martin who rests at Guards cemetery, all four were buried together originally., My question is where are the remains of the others located even if listed as unknowns and why are the 2 named in different cemeteries..   

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What is your reference to them all being buried by 4th Coldstream Guards?

 

  I suspect that 4CG buried them in situ. And another 2 years of war may have led to all sorts of changes to any memorialisation-though I doubt there was any. Perhaps just a map reference and search for ID when buried.

    Robbins was identified on concentration by a pocket book on the remains. Martin was found and concentrated in 1919-no details of how ID was figured on the concentration sheet but it does give a map reference. 

    Concentration sheets for both Robbins and Martin show UBS next to them when found-  Taking the nearest identified men with Robbins-then he could be one of 4 men-him and 3 UBS who might be CG.  Likewise, Martin has 2 UBS from very close map references that might be CG.

   The difference in cemeteries between Robbins and Martin is likely to be concentration searches taking place at different times- one seems to be 1919 and one late 1920. Thus, it depends what cemeteries were being put together and laid out properly then as to where found remains went.

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What is your reference to them all being buried by 4th Coldstream Guards?

 

  I suspect that 4CG buried them in situ. And another 2 years of war may have led to all sorts of changes to any memorialisation-though I doubt there was any. Perhaps just a map reference and search for ID when buried.

    Robbins was identified on concentration by a pocket book on the remains. Martin was found and concentrated in 1919-no details of how ID was figured on the concentration sheet but it does give a map reference. 

    Concentration sheets for both Robbins and Martin show UBS next to them when found-  Taking the nearest identified men with Robbins-then he could be one of 4 men-him and 3 UBS who might be CG.  Likewise, Martin has 2 UBS from very close map references that might be CG.

   The difference in cemeteries between Robbins and Martin is likely to be concentration searches taking place at different times- one seems to be 1919 and one late 1920. Thus, it depends what cemeteries were being put together and laid out properly then as to where found remains went.

The original burial info came from forum member coldstreamer, from an officers diary from the 4th battalion CG.

55d18f96-e185-48c5-8b56-3fcfb8593f72.jpg

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Most interesting.  So there is a real possibility that some of the UBS -plural- buried  with Robbins and Martin -Kells and Cuthbert could be the 2 UBS  found near Martin.  I wonder if Coldstreamer has pushed this listing over to CWGC

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Most interesting.  So there is a real possibility that some of the UBS -plural- buried  with Robbins and Martin -Kells and Cuthbert could be the 2 UBS  found near Martin.  I wonder if Coldstreamer has pushed this listing over to CWGC

No idea if he has, would be great if they could be named as Lance Corporal Ledbury is my wifes great uncle

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Given the amount of battalion casualties remembered at Thiepval for this date, I doubt there's much to offer in way of identification from this ledger and what remains of the original IWGC burial records. Do L/Cpl Ledbrys' service papers survive?  

I only see Cuthbert, Robbins and Ledbury buried by 4th CG, are there more on the uneditted image? From those three Robbins is the only one with a known grave at Caterpillar Valley BC, his remains being reinterred here during 1920? from an unmarked grave at 57C.T.5.a.5.1 - which at present may appear an odd location given that it is about 500 yards east of Lesboeufs and almost all battalion casualties that were concentrated post Armistice were recovered from T.8 and T.13 and T.14. The 4th CG war diary for 18th September records a party of 200 men burying 437 All Ranks when they cleared the battlefield over which the Guards advanced.

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7 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Given the amount of battalion casualties remembered at Thiepval for this date, I doubt there's much to offer in way of identification from this ledger

 

    I agree with you fully on this-I merely suggest that the old saying "grist to the mill" may apply.  The use of red lines across the page may have some significance-perhaps denoting separate burials?? It would be good to see the other pages-but,yes, the odds are against.

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I'll look at ledger later and see if any more ref buried by 4th btn

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3 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

I'll look at ledger later and see if any more ref buried by 4th btn


Given the numbers involved I’d appreciate that Coldstreamer

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9 buried by 4th btn , which was a great number than the 4th lost that day in their entirety

Edited by Coldstreamer
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Thanks for that Coldstreamer, any chance of their names?

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Ill get tomorrow for you

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10 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

I'll look at ledger later and see if any more ref buried by 4th btn

Cheers

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On 01/01/2021 at 19:44, Coldstreamer said:

Ill get tomorrow for you

 

failing to get tomorrow, the names would suffice ;)

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Sorry i forgot!

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13321  cuthbert

12845 robbins

8971 ledbury

12609 copestake

16527 pillan

15671 bolch

11977 smallridge

9675 girdlestone

15398 jackson

 

1st btn men killed 15.9.16 and buried by 4th btn

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13321  cuthbert - Thiepval memorial

12845 robbins - CATERPILLAR VALLEY CEMETERY, LONGUEVAL

8971 ledbury - Thiepval memorial

12609 copestake - Thiepval memorial

16527 pilleau - Thiepval memorial

15671 bolch -Thiepval memorial

11977 smallridge - Thiepval memorial

9675 girdlestone - Thiepval memorial

15398 jackson - Thiepval memorial

 

So it would seem that all the 1st battalion dead bar one that the 4th battalion buried at Ginchy are on the Thiepval memorial, its a pitty that the officer whose diary this was in didnt give map co ords.  I am making the assumption that they were all buried together which makes the question where are the 8 unknows found with Robbins buried, or they have still to be found.

 

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Ill look at the ledger and again when get home and see if any cords mentioned. I think there was one mentioned but that chap wasn't buried by 4th btn

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3 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

Ill look at the ledger and again when get home and see if any cords mentioned. I think there was one mentioned but that chap wasn't buried by 4th btn

Would they have put this info in the 4ths war diary even if it wasnt men from their battalion

 

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6 hours ago, madgarry said:

13321  cuthbert - Thiepval memorial

12845 robbins - CATERPILLAR VALLEY CEMETERY, LONGUEVAL

8971 ledbury - Thiepval memorial

12609 copestake - Thiepval memorial

16527 pilleau - Thiepval memorial

15671 bolch -Thiepval memorial

11977 smallridge - Thiepval memorial

9675 girdlestone - Thiepval memorial

15398 jackson - Thiepval memorial

 

So it would seem that all the 1st battalion dead bar one that the 4th battalion buried at Ginchy are on the Thiepval memorial, its a pitty that the officer whose diary this was in didnt give map co ords.  I am making the assumption that they were all buried together which makes the question where are the 8 unknows found with Robbins buried, or they have still to be found.

 

 

Thanks for adding the names Coldstreamer and thanks madgarry for the additional burial locations... thats saved a little leg work, it is however not particularly useful as all but Robbins appear on the Thiepval Memorial. I note from the 4th Bn diary that they recovered Major Vaughan and Captain Tufnell (both 3rd Bn CG). Vaughan was recovered with a regimental cross from T.13.a and Tufnell from T.13.d, both were re-interred at Delville Wood along with several other 3rd Bn.

It would be wrong to assume that Robbins was initially buried with the others listed by the 4th Bn, the initial burials are likely to have been made in nearby shell holes and marked accordingly.

The reference given for the recoverery of Robbins is still an anomally and at present it may be unwise to say it's a typo for T.8 as all others on the same sheet show T.5. Robbins is the only CG to be recovered from this location, all others where a reference is given are T.8, T.9, T.13 and T.14 - Robbins cannot have been buried in T.5.a by the 4th Bn on 18th September as it was still in the promised land, he could have been buried elsewhere and the grave exposed and buried again but the distance to T.5.a doesn't quite add up. 

The concentration reports for Serre Road No.2 (1927) record several 1st Bn CG being found in unmarked graves in T.9.a and T.9.b in most cases these were two to a shell hole and in one case it was thought the fragments of several isolated graves had been disturbed by shellfire. There are several cemeteries that hold known 1st Bn CG graves and most of these have unknown CG buried among them, the latest reburial taking place around February 1934 from T.14.a.

I have assumed no service records survive and it would be impossible to say where Ledbury may be buried now or if his body was ever concentrated post Armistice at all. It is somewhat conforting to know that he was initially buried and not left exposed, he may still lay in a corner of a foreign field.

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On other names T4b 4 5 is mentioned several times. 

Nothing else sorry

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1 hour ago, Coldstreamer said:

On other names T4b 4 5 is mentioned several times. 

Nothing else sorry


Thanks for that Coldstreamer, I’m assuming same date. Can ask what the ledger is exactly?

It was interesting to me  to see several Sheffield lads on the CG casualty list for 15th September.

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None for ledbury 

 

The others i referred to are not buried by 4th

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23 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

None for ledbury 

 

The others i referred to are not buried by 4th

Do we have any idea of where they were buried as all the diary states is Ginchy 

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