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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Assistance with chevrons and date requested


Gunner 87
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Happy Christmas all. I have two questions that i'm certain can be answered very quickly. Over the holiday I found the attached photograph of a maternal relative. I'm sure there is no way to confirm the regiment due to the lack of a cap badge and unclear shoulder titles. Looking at the wounded stripe on the left sleeve makes me think this was likely taken during WW1 as no medals are being worn. I note the Marksman badge which makes me think he may be infantry..... prepared to stand corrected on that. 

 

I would be very grateful if anyone could explain the upside down chevrons which, in my limited knowledge, are not overseas stripes and confirm this photograph was taken during the war due to the absence of medal ribbons. 

 

many thanks

WW1 Soldier.jpg

Edited by Gunner 87
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wound badge intro July 1916.

2 chevrons point up = 5 years minimum good conduct.

Marksman badge could be awarded infantry, cavalry, RE and ASC.

 

Pedantic heraldic note :chevrons are French roof rafters, so point upwards is chevron, point down is upside down. Nobody cares, but good to know.

 

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To add one more piece of information. Wound stripes began to be worn after the Spring (April?) 1916.

 

Is there anything which indicates where the photo was taken? It's obviously a studio photograph.

Also can you work out a date from the age of the baby?

RM

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4 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

I believe these are good conduct stripes but a uniform expert will be along soon to confirm 

 

3 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

wound badge intro July 1916.

2 chevrons point up = 5 years minimum good conduct.

Marksman badge could be awarded infantry, cavalry, RE and ASC.

 

Pedantic heraldic note :chevrons are French roof rafters, so point upwards is chevron, point down is upside down. Nobody cares, but good to know.

 

 

2 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

To add one more piece of information. Wound stripes began to be worn after the Spring (April?) 1916.

 

Is there anything which indicates where the photo was taken? It's obviously a studio photograph.

Also can you work out a date from the age of the baby?

RM

 

 

Thank you. Your replies are helpful and interesting. In addition, I had no idea that the upside chevrons were actually the right way up..... very much appreciated.

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5 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

To add one more piece of information. Wound stripes began to be worn after the Spring (April?) 1916.

 

Is there anything which indicates where the photo was taken? It's obviously a studio photograph.

Also can you work out a date from the age of the baby?

RM

July 1916 authorised.

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Of course it could be  a post war photo if:

1) He hadn't yet received his medal ribbons  or
2) He wasn't entitled to any due to home service only.

 

Unlikely scenarios maybe, but not impossible.

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4 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Of course it could be  a post war photo if:

1) He hadn't yet received his medal ribbons  or
2) He wasn't entitled to any due to home service only.

 

Unlikely scenarios maybe, but not impossible.

 

Hi Dai, thanks for your suggestion. A quick question, wouldn't the wounded stripe mean that he served overseas or could that have been earned in the UK? 

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He must have got wounded in the EFI canteen queue ;)

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 minute ago, Gunner 87 said:

wouldn't the wounded stripe mean that he served overseas or could that have been earned in the UK? 

Yes, of course, that's quite correct.

I believe that he had to have appeared on an official casualty list in order to be allowed to wear a wound stripe.

Regarding the medal ribbon, the Star ribbons began to be rolled out in December 1918, and the War and Victory medal ribbons from Spring 1919.

Like all rollouts(!) they didn't all happen at once, and someone has to be last in the queue.

So it's possible that this shot might be 1919, (or even 1920?) on that basis. 

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3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He must have got wounded in the NAAFI queue ;)

 

2 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Yes, of course, that's quite correct.

I believe that he had to have appeared on an official casualty list in order to be allowed to wear a wound stripe.

Regarding the medal ribbon, the Star ribbons began to be rolled out in December 1918, and the War and Victory medal ribbons from Spring 1919.

Like all rollouts(!) they didn't all happen at once, and someone has to be last in the queue.

So it's possible that this shot might be 1919, (or even 1920?) on that basis. 

 

Frogsmile.... as always Sir :)

 

Dai, thank you, I appreciate your help.  

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Looking at the approximate size and shape of the shoulder title it has the appearance of a one-piece shoulder title of a fusilier regiment, such as the RF, NF, RINNGF, etc.  Quite a lot of the fusiliers (but not all) had adopted that more convenient style of shoulder title after 1916.  Do you have an idea of a home town connection?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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22 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

...Regarding the medal ribbon, the Star ribbons began to be rolled out in December 1918, and the War and Victory medal ribbons from Spring 1919...

 

The 1914 Star ribbon is on issue from the very earliest months of 1918, 1914-15 Star ribbon from December 1918, the BWM is established July 1919 and the VM in September 1919 with ribbon issue following both fairly swiftly.

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Disregarding wounding other than on active service, I think we can establish a likely time window as from summer 1916 to late 1919. His GCB chevrons would suggest a minimum of service beginning 5 years before 1919, thus 1914.  The further complication is that he would only get the 1914 or 14-15 ribbon if he had been on active service during those years. It rather looks as if he missed  1914 and 1915, and turned up at the front in 1916 or later.

 

A pity we cannot see any overseas service chevrons on his right forearm ...... they would date the photo as after Dec 1917, and tell a tale of his years or part years overseas.

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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looking at the approximate size and shape of the shoulder title it has the appearance of a one-piece shoulder title of a fusilier regiment, such as the RF, NF, RINNGF, etc.  Quite a lot of the fusiliers (but not all) had adopted that more convenient style of shoulder title after 1916.  Do you have an idea of a home town connection?

 

Hi Frogsmile, yes, we know this picture and family connection is in London.

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6 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 

Hi Frogsmile, yes, we know this picture and family connection is in London.


Well I think there’s a good chance that he’s wearing the shoulder title below, for the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

 

8A62CFF7-1BED-4381-9B6B-C2E21F843588.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:


Well I think there’s a good chance that he’s wearing the shoulder title below, for the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

 

8A62CFF7-1BED-4381-9B6B-C2E21F843588.jpeg

 Looking at the shoulder title it certainly appears to be raised more than the normal lettering. Close inspection appears to show a very feint character then possibly a raised 'fusil'..... thank you, I think that may well be it.  

Shoulder Title.jpg

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2 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

The 1914 Star ribbon is on issue from the very earliest months of 1918, 1914-15 Star ribbon from December 1918, the BWM is established July 1919 and the VM in September 1919 with ribbon issue following both fairly swiftly.

Thank you Andrew for your definitive answer.

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36 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 Looking at the shoulder title it certainly appears to be raised more than the normal lettering. Close inspection appears to show a very feint character then possibly a raised 'fusil'..... thank you, I think that may well be it.  


Yes, I’m more confident that’s what it is now that you’ve enlarged it.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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