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Remembered Today:

Unknown Lieutenant "LSR"


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I was looking at some burial concentration records of Tyne cot cemetery when I came across an acronym I am not familiar with.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/463621/J E LIVETT/ (nearest cwgc casualty)

Can anyone tell me what LSR means in the context of a concentration record? 

doc2129712.JPG

I have read in other threads that is could be associated with members of the special reserve Royal Sussex.

 

Would you be able to tell if an officer was part of the special reserve just from their uniform? Or am I just mistaken?

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16 minutes ago, IPT said:

Could it be Lake Superior Regiment?

I did think that but according to what I could find on google the Lake Superior Regiment only came about in 1921https://www.thunderbaymuseum.com/exhibits/virtual-exhibits/lake-superior-regiment/

 

It seems that in the great war they were the 52nd or 141st according to wikipedia . Would they still have had LSR on their uniforms? 

 

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Military Medal and Long Service Ribbons - a regular commissioned from the ranks.

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12 hours ago, Jack2020 said:

I was looking at some burial concentration records of Tyne cot cemetery when I came across an acronym I am not familiar with.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/463621/J E LIVETT/ (nearest cwgc casualty)

Can anyone tell me what LSR means in the context of a concentration record? 

doc2129712.JPG

I have read in other threads that is could be associated with members of the special reserve Royal Sussex.

 

Would you be able to tell if an officer was part of the special reserve just from their uniform? Or am I just mistaken?

I took a quick look at these reports during the summer and noticed a couple in Tyne Cot Cemetery that could be named.

 

we could look at possible 10 candidates for this Lieutenant and they are either Australian or Canadian, so there service records are accessible.

 

Will

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I think our field needs to be broader than that group but CWGC search is not helping here. We also can’t rule out men commemorated on the Menin Gate. Will see where I can get too later, but without a service record (and I tend to think UK rather than dominions) this will be a challenge. 

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Yeah I'm afraid this one may not be very likely to identify. 

If this is the right one, he is recorded as British https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/464200/C PARENT/

image.png.a1d686aa83a5a74e60a57c881b7a703a.png

 

 

According to the Menin Gate there are no Lieutenants with an M.M listed as British but there are 3 second lieutenants 

SECOND LIEUTENANTALEXANDER JOSEPH SMITH

SECOND LIEUTENANTGUY COMPTON

SECOND LIEUTENANTRENNIE EMMOTT

 

And according to the Tyne Cot Memorial there is only 1 full lieutenant with an M.M

LIEUTENANTJOHN TAYLOR

 

There are 20 second lieutenants with M.Ms. (I only include this as I've read there can be discrepancies between acting, temporary ranks etc but i am no expert) 

 

 

 

Edited by Jack2020
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2 hours ago, johntanner said:

I think our field needs to be broader than that group but CWGC search is not helping here. We also can’t rule out men commemorated on the Menin Gate. Will see where I can get too later, but without a service record (and I tend to think UK rather than dominions) this will be a challenge. 

The 10 had names in either the Menin Gate and Tyne Cot.  

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2 hours ago, Jack2020 said:

Yeah I'm afraid this one may not be very likely to identify. 

If this is the right one, he is recorded as British https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/464200/C PARENT/

image.png.a1d686aa83a5a74e60a57c881b7a703a.png

 

 

According to the Menin Gate there are no Lieutenants with an M.M listed as British but there are 3 second lieutenants 

SECOND LIEUTENANTALEXANDER JOSEPH SMITH

SECOND LIEUTENANTGUY COMPTON

SECOND LIEUTENANTRENNIE EMMOTT

 

And according to the Tyne Cot Memorial there is only 1 full lieutenant with an M.M

LIEUTENANTJOHN TAYLOR

 

There are 20 second lieutenants with M.Ms. (I only include this as I've read there can be discrepancies between acting, temporary ranks etc but i am no expert) 

 

 

 

John Taylor was only 21 when he died, so very very very unlikely it will be him.

 

it will be somebody who will be in there late 30's or 40's and will be commiss opened from the ranks 

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So, I'm not confident we will get there with this man but, reviewing the Tyne Cot Memorial and Menin Gate across British and Dominions gives 39 possibles, with rank of Lieutenant or Second Lieutenant.  Conscious of the debate would could have about acting ranks (which would broaden this somewhat) I've recklessly taken the GRU report at face value.

 

Going one step further and removing the Dominion officers, on the same GRU rationale, takes us down to 26, including one South African.

 

Then on to age. As Cheshire22 says we are looking at someone in the upper age range as they would have had to have served 18 years to qualify for LS.  Assuming at the lower end a Boy Soldier enlistment, (14+18) they would have to be a minimum of 32 - not allowing for underage enlistments, double service in eg West Africa and the Sudan etc.

 

On that basis we can then narrow it further.  Taking out everyone 29 or younger (to allow for the point above and give some flex) and keeping in those with no age given, we have:

Surname

Forename

Initials

Age

Honours

DateOfDeath

Rank

Regiment

SecondaryRegiment

Unit

Cemetery

GraveRef

AdditionalInfo

WILLIAMS

AUBREY

A

0

M M

25/04/1918

Second Lieutenant

West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)

1st/6th Bn.

TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Panel 42 to 47.

   

LEACH

GEORGE

G

0

M M

28/04/1918

Second Lieutenant

Manchester Regiment

17th Bn.

TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Addenda Panel 163.

Husband of Jane Ann Leach, of 5 Colyton Road, Chorley.

JOHNSTON

CHARLES WRIGHT

C W

0

M M

12/10/1917

Second Lieutenant

Royal Scots

11th Bn.

TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Panel 11 to 14.

   

COMPTON

GUY

G

0

D C M, M M

27/07/1917

Second Lieutenant

Royal Sussex Regiment

 attd. 9th Bn.

YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Panel 20.

   

GILL

ROWLAND

R

33

M C, M M

19/04/1918

Second Lieutenant

The King's (Liverpool Regiment)

17th Bn.

TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Panel 31 to 34.

Son of the Rev. Daniel and Mrs. D. M. Gill, of "Santos," Tower Rd., Worthing.

DAVISON

FREDERICK WILLIAM

F W

33

M M

17/04/1918

Second Lieutenant

York and Lancaster Regiment

3rd Bn. attd. 1st/4th Bn.

TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Panel 125 to 128.

Son of J. Davison, of 3, Myrtle Grove Terr., Birkenshaw, Nr. Bradford.

SYMONDS

FREDERICK GEORGE

F G

36

D C M, M M, Mentioned in Despatches

22/10/1917

Second Lieutenant

Norfolk Regiment

8th Bn.

TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Panel 34 to 35.

Son of Frederick and Emma Symonds, of The Hamlet, 30, Station Rd., Westcliff-on-Sea, Essex.

MacDONALD

DONALD

D

36

M M

22/10/1917

Second Lieutenant

South African Infantry

4th Regt. (Inf.).

YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Panel 15 - 16 and 16A.

Son of Donald and Margaret MacDonald, of Glass, Huntly, Aberdeenshire, Scotland; husband of Miriam Rose MacDonald, of 19, South Parade, Blossom St., York, England.

JEEVES

CHARLES ANTHONY VICTOR

C A V

37

M M

20/09/1917

Second Lieutenant

Devonshire Regiment

The King's (Liverpool Regiment)

TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Panel 38 to 40.

Son of Anthony and May Lambert Jeeves, of "Croyland," Albert Park Rd., Malvern, Worcs.

 

We could discard Compton, Gill and Symonds on the basis that they have other decorations but as we are on such scant evidence, I've left them in for the moment.

 

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Williams won his MM as Cpl 15966 Somerset 8th Bn, , to France 8/9/15 commissioned W Yorks 29/6/17, still in the field, but looks not to be a regular

Leach won his MM as Sgt 200491 Loyal N Lancs, in either the 1/4th or 2/4th Bn, so unlikely to be our man.

Johnston won MM as Sgt 14112 11th Royal Scots, commissioned 25/4/17. Went overseas with 11th Bn. 11/5/15, so unlikely to be our men.

Compton won his MM as Sgt 658 11th Bn Royal Sussex,. Previously numbered as G6268 in 11th Bn. To France 4/3/16. Commissioned in 3rd Bn. 25/4/17.

Gill went to France on 21/5/15 as Pte 31822 RAMC, and won his MM as that. Commissioned 25/4/17. DetailRowland Gill (MC) (MM) | Liverpool Palss here confirm he isn't our man.

Davison won his MM as L/Cpl GS/19678 26th Bn Royal Fusiliers. To France 4/5/16 and commissioned 29/5/17. Unlikely to be our man.

Symonds won his MM as Sgt 15792, To France 30/5/15. with 7th Bn Norfolk.  Unlikely to be our man.

MacDonald not traced as no SA records.

Jeeves won his MM as L/Cpl 14391 RDF, Galliopli/Balkans 9/8/15. Commissioned 26/6/17

 

So now at a dead end unless someone else has a brainwave.

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Should be under the original regiment.  Have downloaded and will review over the break/lockdown, but don't hold out much hope of getting a match.

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I've just checked the CWGC Database of ID & MIS ID Case and somebody has already submitted a case for this grave

 

Case number 615 is showing as Lieutenant John Maher Lyons MC, MM & MSM of the 17th Battalion AIF.  died on the 9th October 1917. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Cheshire22 said:

I've just checked the CWGC Database of ID & MIS ID Case and somebody has already submitted a case for this grave

 

Case number 615 is showing as Lieutenant John Maher Lyons MC, MM & MSM of the 17th Battalion AIF.  died on the 9th October 1917. 

 

Crikey - what a spot - looking likely.  The "LSM" ribbon referred to could easily be a MSM ribbon as it is identical to the Army LSGC with the exception of a small white stripe in the centre.  Lieutenant John Maher Lyons MC MM MSM. Unit: 17th Battalion, Australian Imperial Force. Death: 9 October 1917, missing, Passchendaele, Western Front. Commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial. (Photo IWM 124444)

 

© IWM HU 124444.jpg

Edited by TullochArd
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Still think it's likely to be a challenge to prove to the standard they now require.

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1 hour ago, johntanner said:

Still think it's likely to be a challenge to prove to the standard they now require.

 

Reckon so. 

 

The AWM has an interesting snippet "Lyons was awarded the Military Cross posthumously for his actions during the attack towards Passchendaele on 9 October 1917. Lyons was wounded during the attack and was placed on a stretcher in a captured German pill box. Due to a heavy counter attack, the Australian troops were forced to retreat and Lyons was unable to be moved. The area was later retaken, but Lyons was never found. After an investigation, he was listed as killed in action." 

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5 hours ago, TullochArd said:

 

Reckon so. 

 

The AWM has an interesting snippet "Lyons was awarded the Military Cross posthumously for his actions during the attack towards Passchendaele on 9 October 1917. Lyons was wounded during the attack and was placed on a stretcher in a captured German pill box. Due to a heavy counter attack, the Australian troops were forced to retreat and Lyons was unable to be moved. The area was later retaken, but Lyons was never found. After an investigation, he was listed as killed in action." 

Having looked at the service records, it doesn't mention the above, the is very little about his death as Per the witness statements.  

 

But it does show that the 17th Battalion were in that area of attack when he was killed. 

 

I'm feel that it is  John Lyons but it's up the Australian MOD and the CWGC to decide that fact.  

 

Not you and i , we can only being cases to there attention.  I feel that only cases, with at least 2 or 3 pieces of identification could change the headstone.  

 

In this case the rank, medals and position of the location of the battlefield grave. 

 

HI in 1916, MSM in 1917 and the MC in 1917 after his deatb

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9 hours ago, Cheshire22 said:

I'm feel that it is  John Lyons but it's up the Australian MOD and the CWGC to decide that fact.  Not you and i , we can only being cases to there attention.  

 

Don't believe I'm putting up a case here Cheshire22. As you have identified a case has already been researched and presented.  I'm simply responding in a Forum ("a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged") to a most interesting question/observation raised by a fellow member.   

 

.......... I'd put a fiver on this one being put to bed in Lyons favour some time in the next couple of decades.  :thumbsup:

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