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Trbunal Decision: Call up deferred because man had a DCM


rolt968
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Searching through hundreds of newspapers online I noticed an article which said that a Military Service Trbunal had deferred a man's call up because he was time served and had a DCM.  Unforunately it gave no more details. The newspaper obviously approved. Of course the paper could have got it wrong - only the DCM is mentioned in the headline.

 

Did a tribunal have that kind of discretion?

 

(Unfortunately with so many papers to go through I didn't take a note of paper or date.)

 

RM

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Take a look  at the life of Corder Cathcpool- a local man to where I live-a Quaker and a C.O.  But he had served in France in an ambulance unit and turned up at  his hearing with the Mons Star.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi RM,

Don't think the fact that a bloke had previously received an award necessarily 'exempted' an individual from call-up but, as far as I can recall, time-expired personnel, those who had already completed their military service under their original terms of enlistment (presumably pre-war) or those former service personnel who had attempted to re-join the Colours on the outbreak of war but who had been rejected (unfit, etc) were indeed not initially subject to the first incarnation of the Military Service Act. The legislation was obviously tinkered with over time, so it would be useful to know when this chap was a) awarded the DCM (WW1? Earlier) and b) protected from call-up

 

Andy

 

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In this case I was wondering if he was one of the men whose time was completed during the war, served the extra year and was discharged (before conscription was introduced).

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12 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

     DB-  You must be lagging on the medical journals -  there is, of course, recent literature on the after effects of COVID (aka PCK-I know you medicos love your acronyms and initials- Post Covid Knackered) -and illiteracy. 

    I remind you of the late great Spike Milligan  and how he used to sign letters:

 

           Spine Millington

           (The well-known typing error) 

Seriously, thanks for the correction- I hope the current pestilence is bringing out the best in your professional life  -I have little doubt  that all challenges can be risen to. Take care:D

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17 hours ago, voltaire60 said:

 DB-  You must be lagging on the medical journals

Nah.

Never read them.

Far more interesting stuff in life to do.

The article mentions a  "French Mons Star". Is that correct?

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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19 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The article mentions a  "French Mons Star". Is that correct?

 

 Catchpool had the 1914 Star for ambulance work- Oh to have been a fly on the wall at his tribunal- it seems to have been a real-life situation that Arnold Ridley insisted on for the classic episode of "Dad's Army"- Branded. As it is, Mons is in Belgium..........................

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Would he have actually been wearing the Mons Star at his Tribunal? When were they first physically issued?

Martin

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Hi Martin- Yes, even Your Humble had wondered that- as the Star seems to have been initiated at the latter end of 1917.  I am sure the medal collectors on the Forum will wade in and give the details.  I suspect that  we are in "The Man who Shot Liberty Valance" on that one- if in doubt between the truth and the legend-print the legend. I understand there is a more recent term for dodgy news stories associated with an even more recently departed public office holder in another country to ours- No names, no pack drill.....  though I really enjoyed Nigella's recipe for Bitter Orange Tart the other day...

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This from the Beverley and East Riding Recorder 21 October 1916

Seems this man's luck ran out having previously been granted a three month deferment which was probably on the grounds of family hardship.  No doubt if we drilled down it was the military representative who was less than sympathetic.

By 1917 and the MSA (Review of Exemptions) Act old soldiers were being hauled before Tribunals having previously been injured etc.  This man, subject of the article clearly came within the terms of the original Act and the only exception, other than domestic hardship that would apply is if, having served he had been discharged through injury or ill health.

Presumably he was originally called up from the Reserve in August 1914 but it is a strange one.

Image courtesy BNA @ FMP

Screenshot 2021-01-21 at 17.27.15.png

 

 

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Thank you.

That looks as if it was the same kind of situation.

I was wondering if tribunals believed that they had more discretion in the early months. (I agree about the military representative.)

I think it also might be possible that he was a time served territorial.

 

RM

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12 hours ago, rolt968 said:

That looks as if it was the same kind of situation.

I was wondering if tribunals believed that they had more discretion in the early months. (I agree about the military representative.)

I think it also might be possible that he was a time served territorial.

Wild guess you found your man in a Scottish newspaper (?):)

 

Anyway I  was intrigued by the Yorkshire man and went back to find the original deferment reported on the 8th July, sure enough as we suspected the military representative was the 'villain', the Tribunal generally being 'sympathetic'.

 

Screenshot 2021-01-22 at 09.29.08.png

Image BNA @ FMP

Seriously, Colonel Conran's comments, as reported, seem especially relevant to most similar cases, i.e. 'The military had orders to call up all time expired military men'.  Holding the DCM was not a reason for exemption the soldier appears to be citing 'domestic hardship' - unsuccessfully as it proved.

 

13 years with the Colours would be about right, twelve years normal term called up from Reserve, one extra year for wartime service then discharged.

I now want to find out who he was and what happened to him which should keep me busy for a while.

 

 

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1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Wild guess you found your man in a Scottish newspaper (?):)

 

Anyway I  was intrigued by the Yorkshire man and went back to find the original deferment reported on the 8th July, sure enough as we suspected the military representative was the 'villain', the Tribunal generally being 'sympathetic'.

 

Screenshot 2021-01-22 at 09.29.08.png

Image BNA @ FMP

Seriously, Colonel Conran's comments, as reported, seem especially relevant to most similar cases, i.e. 'The military had orders to call up all time expired military men'.  Holding the DCM was not a reason for exemption the soldier appears to be citing 'domestic hardship' - unsuccessfully as it proved.

 

13 years with the Colours would be about right, twelve years normal term called up from Reserve, one extra year for wartime service then discharged.

I now want to find out who he was and what happened to him which should keep me busy for a while.

 

 

I will be fascinated to learn what you find out Ken.  I can’t help but wonder if he survived.

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10 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Wild guess you found your man in a Scottish newspaper (?):)

 

Correct. Probably in a search of newspapers which serve the counties of Angus (including Dundee), Perthshire and Kincardineshire.

It might have been the Arbroath Burgh Tribunal - a vague memory but I'm not sure.

RM

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On 22/01/2021 at 12:00, FROGSMILE said:

I will be fascinated to learn what you find out Ken.  I can’t help but wonder if he survived.

 

At the risk of hijacking the thread, in all probability he was Cpl Richard Pearce 7351 East Yorkshire Regiment (EYR).

 

Discharged on the 17th May at Beverley time expired after 13 years with the Colours.  Ironically signed off on the 25th May by Colonel Conran, C.O. Depot Battalion EYR, presumably the same Colonel Conran who was military representative on the Beverley Tribunal.

 

He was aged 19 when he enlisted in March 1903 in Liverpool so 32 in 1916 drill down a bit more to his birthdate and probably was 33 in July 1916 when he appeared before the Tribunal.

His Great War record shows he was mobilised from the Reserve on the 5th August 1914 at Beverley and posted to the 1st Battalion EYR, landing in France 2nd November 1914.  

 

He was awarded the DCM for “Conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty on the 9th August 1915, when in charge of a bombing party who cleared a communication trench and reached the crater at Hooge”
LG 14/9/1915.
He was apparently wounded during this action but appears to have remained at duty.

 

I can’t find details of subsequent service but on the 16th July 1920 there is a record of an Issue Voucher for the 1914 ‘Clasp and Roses’. 

It therefore appears he survived the conflict. 

 

If anyone has the AVL for Beverley his intended residence on discharge was Vinegar Hill Farm, Beverley Park, Beverley.  He was seeking work as a postman or railway porter.

 

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1 minute ago, kenf48 said:

 

At the risk of hijacking the thread, in all probability he was Cpl Richard Pearce 7351 East Yorkshire Regiment (EYR).

 

Discharged on the 17th May at Beverley time expired after 13 years with the Colours.  Ironically signed off on the 25th May by Colonel Conran, C.O. Depot Battalion EYR, presumably the same Colonel Conran who was military representative on the Beverley Tribunal.

 

He was aged 19 when he enlisted in March 1903 in Liverpool so 32 in 1916 drill down a bit more to his birthdate and probably was 33 in July 1916 when he appeared before the Tribunal.

His Great War record shows he was mobilised from the Reserve on the 5th August 1914 at Beverley and posted to the 1st Battalion EYR, landing in France 2nd November 1914.  

 

He was awarded the DCM for “Conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty on the 9th August 1915, when in charge of a bombing party who cleared a communication trench and reached the crater at Hooge”
LG 14/9/1915.
He was apparently wounded during this action but appears to have remained at duty.

 

I can’t find details of subsequent service but on the 16th July 1920 there is a record of an Issue Voucher for the 1914 ‘Clasp and Roses’. 

It therefore appears he survived the conflict. 

 

If anyone has the AVL for Beverley his intended residence on discharge was Vinegar Hill Farm, Beverley Park, Beverley.  He was seeking work as a postman or railway porter.

 


That’s absolutely fascinating Ken, thank you for taking the trouble to dig that up, it can’t have been easy.  I was a bit surprised in some respects that they made him mobilise (under conscription) again after winning the DCM and being close to his middle 30s.  Being an infantryman is a young fellows business and most are worn out by the end of their 30s, which is why 40 became the common age for a soldier who enlisted at 18 to retire.  The fact that he survived surprises me given all that occurred in 1917-18 and I do wonder if they found more use for him at a training school.  Either he was extraordinarily lucky, or he was protected in some way, even if inadvertently.

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12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The fact that he survived surprises me given all that occurred in 1917-18 and I do wonder if they found more use for him at a training school.  Either he was extraordinarily lucky, or he was protected in some way, even if inadvertently.

That's what I thought, perhaps Colonel Conran wasn't such a 'villain' after all, just wish I could find more post Tribunal :(

then again whilst his age and service 'fits' it has to be on the balance of probability

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3 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

That's what I thought, perhaps Colonel Conran wasn't such a 'villain' after all, just wish I could find more post Tribunal :(

then again whilst his age and service 'fits' it has to be on the balance of probability

At least it’s known that he survived even if we don’t know where he served during his second stint of service.

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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

At least it’s known that he survived even if we don’t know where he served during his second stint of service.

The Medal Roll for the BWM and Victory Medal only lists 1 East Yorkshire Regiment and discharged. I wonder if there is a medal roll entry for a different unit and number for his later service.

RM

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59 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

The Medal Roll for the BWM and Victory Medal only lists 1 East Yorkshire Regiment and discharged. I wonder if there is a medal roll entry for a different unit and number for his later service.

RM


The medals would have been applied for on his behalf by the last regiment he served with. 

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11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:


The medals would have been applied for on his behalf by the last regiment he served with. 

Agreed, but it's not unknown for there to be duplicates. There might be one in this case if his later service was with a different unit.

RM

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