How many Germans left the UK to join the German Army in 1914?

[Derek Black]

Having recently read accounts of the 1914 Christmas truce, it seems there were plenty Germans encountered in no man's land fraternisation, who had until shortly before being recalled to serve in the German army, been living lives in the UK.

Is the number of these returning Germans known?

 

Cheers,

Derek.

[Guest]

It's an intriguing question- I live in the east of London and there was a very substantial German community here before 1914- Nowadays, references to "Germanic" surnames seems to presume that forebears came as Jewish incomers from the tsarist pogroms but this is not so- We still have the German Hospital in Hackney.  

   I have yet to find reports of Germans returning -either being helped or hindered on their way.  The other side of the coin is those Germans and Austrians of military age who chose to stay- there is a presumption here that some of the younger German/Austrian males had ended up in the UK pre-war to avoid military service anyway. 

   But you are right in one thing- when it comes to meetings during the war, there always seems to have been one German who was a waiter in London before the war....

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What would be the logistics of getting to Germany during wartime?

I suppose it would be possible to get in via neutral maritime countries such as the USA, Holland or the Scandinavian countries.

But how easy would it be for a man of military age to leave this country, especially if they had a suspiciously German sounding name?

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What would be the logistics of getting to Germany during wartime?

I suppose it would be possible to get in via neutral maritime countries such as the USA, Holland or the Scandinavian countries.

But how easy would it be for a man of military age to leave this country, especially if they had a suspiciously German sounding name?

 

    Very hard indeed. Port control officers made pretty sure that people were stopped- again pretty much instantaneously after DORA went through.

[Derek Black]

On 08/12/2020 at 11:50, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What would be the logistics of getting to Germany during wartime?

I suppose it would be possible to get in via neutral maritime countries such as the USA, Holland or the Scandinavian countries.

But how easy would it be for a man of military age to leave this country, especially if they had a suspiciously German sounding name?

Dai,

 

This brings up the additional question of, when were these men mobilised/recalled? if it was before Britains entry into the war, then presumably nothing would be in place to stop leaving the country?

 

Yes GUEST waiters do seem to pop up a lot.

 

Derek.

[ss002d6252]

On 08/12/2020 at 16:53, Derek Black said:

Dai,

 

This brings up the additional question of, when were these men mobilised/recalled? if it was before Britains entry into the war, then presumably nothing would be in place to stop leaving the country?

 

Yes GUEST waiters do seem to pop up a lot.

 

Derek.

As of 7/8 August 1914 there were German reservists being picked up across the county. I'd imagine though they were reservists by law rather than by choice otherwise I'd expect that they'd have tried to leave already. I think German general mobilization was around 1st August, so plenty of time to have left the country if they'd wanted to.

Craig

[GreyC]

Here is a photo "from the other side", English civilians who didn´t manage to leave Germany in time and who were interned at Ruhleben, as of 1920 part of Berlin. The photo shows some of them shortly before returning to England after the war.

 

 

and here the London counterpart for German internees: Alexandra Palace. A brother writes to his sister in July of 1915 sending her a view of the "camp".

GreyC

Edited 8 December , 2020 by GreyC

[Derek Black]

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

As of 7/8 August 1914 there were German reservists being picked up across the county. I'd imagine though they were reservists by law rather than by choice otherwise I'd expect that they'd have tried to leave already. I think German general mobilization was around 1st August, so plenty of time to have left the country if they'd wanted to.

Craig

Thanks Craig,

So a window of opportunity for many to make the journey.

 

The chances of this not being covered in someones research or book must be slim, even a ballpark figure must have been formulated?

 

Derek.

Edited 8 December , 2020 by Derek Black

[Derek Black]

Some interesting info from Our Migration Story - https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/germanophobia-and-germans-in-britain-in-the-early-twentieth-century

 

"According to the 1911 census 53,324 German immigrants resided in Britain"

"Germans became particularly important as waiters by 1911, making up 10 per cent of this occupational group in London."

This gives extra weight to the many accounts of of interaction with Germans during the Christmas truce, who reportedly spoke perfect English, claiming to have worked in London hotels before the outbreak of war.
 

"... internment of males of military age (17–55), camps emerged throughout the country with the largest, Knockaloe, situated on the Isle of Man and holding over 23,000 men at its peak. The government deported German women, children and the elderly throughout the War and also sent away males upon release from internment, meaning just 22,254 Germans remained in Britain by 1919. "

Although enlightening about Germans living in Britain at the wars start and end, unfortunately the question as to how many Germans did make it back to join their armed forces, remains unanswered.

If anyone knows of any studies or books on the subject, please let me know.

 

Cheers,

Derek.

[Moonraker]

Some snippets from Graham Mark, Prisoners of War in British Hands during WW1:

 

On August 7, 1914, the War Office sent instructions to all military commands to arrest as PoWs all Germans and Austrians aged between 17 and 42 years, though the responsibility was soon passed to the police, who arrested "many in the early days of the war at ports as they tried to leave for the Continent". On October the Foreign Office stated that some 10,000 had been arrested but  they were less than one-third of the enemy-alien male population of military age then residing in the UK.

[GreyC]

Two vistas of Knockaloe from my collection, one from 1915, one from 1918.

GreyC

 

 

[Derek Black]

Moonraker,

 

Thank you, that is an interesting snippet. Possibly over 20,000 eh.
I wonder if there was anything the government could have earlier done, legally, to hinder their return to Germany?

 

GreyC,

 

Thanks for the images. Must have been a tough times for those interned.

 

Cheers,

Derek.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What exactly do you mean by 1914?

I presume  you are asking about the period after the outbreak of war?

Before then, there would  have been no real barrier preventing Germans leaving the UK.

 

I'm not sure your assuming up to 20,000 can be deduced from the figures  above, as they all seem to cover different datasets.

 

If the total  population was still 53000 at the outbreak and 23000 at the end , then there are 30000 persons who left these shores during the conflict.

 

10000 men arrested by October is said to be a third of the men of military  age, so that cohort  would be about 30000.  So that might fit with a total population of 53000.

 

23000 people were interned in just one camp alone at its peak. Do we know  how many others were interned in other camps?

Do we know how many elderly, women and children were repatriated?

 

I think it defies belief that even a few hundred men could return to Germany after hostilities commenced. It would have to be via shipping through neutral countries, and unless the UK border force of its day was  totally incompetent,  it could not have allowed men from enemy combatant nations to slip out on such a huge scale

 

[Moonraker]

The Aliens Restriction Act was passed on August 5, 1914, restricting the movement of non-British people within, into or out of Britain.

 

The War Office instruction of the 5th to which I referred above included Austrians, although war against that country was not declared until the 12th.

 

A perusal of local and nation newspapers (The Times is perhaps the most readily available on-line) would provide lots of information and no doubt there are relevant documents held at the National Archives, such as CAB 38/28/49, which relates to a Cabinet sub-committee report of October 17 that opined that all aliens of military age should be interned and others sent home.

 

Of limited relevance to this thread, HO 45/11522/287235 parts I and 2 give details of censuses of "alien enemies"" aged 18 years and over  at liberty in Britain. Figures for Wiltshire were:

July 1, 1916:    12 males      9 foreign-born females      16 British-born females        total 37  (There were also 4 male Russians aged 18 years and over in Salisbury and 6  elsewhere in Wiltshire.)
July 1, 1917    70 males      17 foreign-born females 16 British-born females                total 103
July 1, 1918    8 males         17 foreign-born females    24 British-born females            total 49
July 1, 1919    7 males        9 foreign-born females      16 British-born females             total 32

 

The file also gives instances of over-reaction to suspected aliens, including how in Hertfordshire an angry mob gathered around a public house threatening to kill two men said to be Germans; in fact they were rat-catchers from Wiltshire whose accents were unfamiliar!

 

[Derek Black]

Dai,

 

I am interested to know how many British based Germans (Austrians too now) of fighting age managed to return to the continent to join the German and Austrian Armies before the authorities managed to put a stop to it.
So the 1st of August until the 5th, or whenever the Alien Restrictions Act was fully implemented around the country.

I'm still looking for information. I didn't intend for my style of writing to imply I'd come to any conclusions, apologies for giving that impression.

Moonraker,

Thanks again.
Wiltshire clearly wasn't hot spot for German immigration, anti German sentiment was rife all over, no doubt.
 

Cheers,
Derek.

Edited 10 April , 2021 by Derek Black

[QUEX]

I would recommend Panikos Panayi's writing -  Enemy in Our Midst: Germans in Britain During the First World War and Prisoners of Britain: German Civilian and Combatant Internees During the First World War - as a good starting point for anybody trying to understand the German experience in Britain in 1914-18. Found the first very useful, not read the second but would expect it to be of similar quality.

[Derek Black]

1 hour ago, QUEX said:

I would recommend Panikos Panayi's writing -  Enemy in Our Midst: Germans in Britain During the First World War and Prisoners of Britain: German Civilian and Combatant Internees During the First World War - as a good starting point for anybody trying to understand the German experience in Britain in 1914-18. Found the first very useful, not read the second but would expect it to be of similar quality.

 

QUEX,

 

Thank you for the book recommendations.

 

edit - having had  a look, i see Prof. Panayi has written a number of books on immigration, sadly they're very expensive. I'll keep an eye out for a bargain.

 

Cheers,

Derek.

Edited 10 April , 2021 by Derek Black

[Derek Black]

Prof. Panayi would seem to be the man who would know, having written several books on Germans in Britain before, during and after the war.

So I asked him "Is it known how many Germans residing in Britain were able to return to Germany, in the days between Germany's general mobilisation on the 1st and the enacting of the Alien Registration Act on the 5th of August?"

 

his reply:
"I don't have any figures to answer your question but I think the answer is very few. I have never come across anybody who did return."

 

I think that's a good answer to my initial query.
If the numbers were considerable I'm certain the Prof. would have come across some mention of this in his years of research.

 

Derek.

[Derek Black]

An update.

Essex Newsman - Saturday 2nd January 1915

WICKFORD GERMAN KILLED

News has been received in Wickford that Mr C. Fischer, who was of German nationality, and resided at Home Rest, has been killed in action in France. He was called up by the German government, and left Wickford on August Bank Holiday, leaving his wife at their residence. His last words were that he wished he had not to go, as he felt he was going to fight against his friends. He was a Lieutenant, and while engaged against the English on Sept. 29 in France he received three bullet wounds. His wife left Wickford in the Autumn.

 

So one man at least returned to Germany in the small window of time after the mobilisation and the government passing legislation to prevent them doing so.

 

He has a listing on the Wickford War Memorial website.

FISCHER, Carl

Lieutenant, 7th Bayerisches Feldartillerie Regiment, German Army

Killed in Action, Deniecourt France, September 29-30, 1914.

Cheers,
Derek.

Edited 23 July , 2021 by Derek Black

[GreyC]

As he served with a Bavarian unit and his name and unit are known, you could find his military career and biographical data in his Stammliste at Ancestry, access assumed.

GreyC

[Gunner Bailey]

I have a copy of a photo taken in Sandgate - Folkestone of Austrian men being marched under guard. Dated 13 or 18 August 1914.

I don't remember the context but probably marching to internment after arriving in Folkestone to try to get home.

 

Edited 23 July , 2021 by Gunner Bailey

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 hours ago, Derek Black said:

So one man at least returned to Germany in the small window of time after the mobilisation and the government passing legislation to prevent them doing so.

Well...
Between German mobilization and declaration of war, but not after.

 

In those days, August Bank Holiday was on the Monday at the beginning of the month, not as it is now, at the end.
In 1914, Bank Holiday Monday was on August 3rd. We are told that this man left "on August Bank Holiday" - presumably, specifically the Monday.

The legislation came in to effect on the 5th outlawing the movement of alien nationals out of the country.

Other legislation came into effect extending the August Bank Holiday period until Thursday 6th.
https://www.natwestgroupremembers.com/banking-in-wartime/banking-business/august-1914-the-longest-bank-holiday.html

(But the article, if it is correct, mentions him leaving "on August Bank Holiday", not "during".

 

Edited 23 July , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Derek Black]

3 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

I have a copy of a photo taken in Sandgate - Folkestone of Austrian men being marched under guard. Dated 13 or 18 August 1914.

I don't remember the context but probably marching to internment after arriving in Folkestone to try to get home.

 

What an interesting photo.
It would make sense if they were detained trying to return home for military service

Cheers,
Derek.

[Derek Black]

4 hours ago, GreyC said:

As he served with a Bavarian unit and his name and unit are known, you could find his military career and biographical data in his Stammliste at Ancestry, access assumed.

GreyC

Thanks GreyC,

I did have a look at the Carl Fischer's that came up in the German records, but I couldn't see any details regarding an English address for those I looked at.. I'm sure he's in there somewhere.

Cheers
Derk.

[Derek Black]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Between German mobilization and declaration of war, but not after.

Dai,

Yes, that does seem to be the window of opportunity for men to successfully get back to join the German and Austrian armies.
How many did so would be interesting to know.

Cheers
Derek.