1st batt Herefordshire reg - shot in the dark

[Bean tool]

Hello all,

 

Not expecting much info from this request but thought it best to ask than sit and wonder. When I was a child I remember a picture of my ggf sat with at least 150 other men in a square in infront of a large brick building. Sadly this picture has been lost. None of the men looked fresh, many had a horrible look to them and I vividly remember one chap wrapped in bandages. 

 

At the bottom of the picture it said 'Cologne Germany 1919'. Now I'm 80% sure it said Cologne, 100% sure it said Germany. Forgive me I haven't seen this picture in 25 years. Having done a bit of digging I can't see that the 1st Batt Herefordshire reg were ever in Germany.

 

The picture was large, at least 40cmx30cm, so I'm assuming this was some kind of regimental photo. I've spoken with the regimental museum and they have no information and can't confirm whether the regiment was even there. 

 

Is all very odd. Anyway thanks for reading

 

Dan

[PRC]

58 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

When I was a child I remember a picture of my ggf sat with at least 150 other men in a square in infront of a large brick building.

So who was your great grandfather and do you know what unit he was serving with - if not, would that be a good place to start from?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Bean tool]

Hey Peter, 

 

Not sure if this will work but I'll link you to a post I made two years ago with his medal card. I got side tracked and let the trail go cold on William until now.

 

Thanks 

 

Dan

[Bean tool]

Ok so that hasn't worked. Is some form of witchcraft. 

 

Anyway his card states Pte William Hull. Number 3982/236538. 1st Hereforshire regiment. And that's it. Sorry for the vagueness of it. 

 

Thanks 

 

Dan

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bean tool said:

Hello all,

 

Not expecting much info from this request but thought it best to ask than sit and wonder. When I was a child I remember a picture of my ggf sat with at least 150 other men in a square in infront of a large brick building. Sadly this picture has been lost. None of the men looked fresh, many had a horrible look to them and I vividly remember one chap wrapped in bandages. 

 

At the bottom of the picture it said 'Cologne Germany 1919'. Now I'm 80% sure it said Cologne, 100% sure it said Germany. Forgive me I haven't seen this picture in 25 years. Having done a bit of digging I can't see that the 1st Batt Herefordshire reg were ever in Germany.

 

The picture was large, at least 40cmx30cm, so I'm assuming this was some kind of regimental photo. I've spoken with the regimental museum and they have no information and can't confirm whether the regiment was even there. 

 

Is all very odd. Anyway thanks for reading

 

Dan

Cologne and Germany in relation to the British Army in 1919 is entirely accurate.  Following the Armistice a partial occupation of Germany was agreed and the responsibility to flood the agreed areas with troops was divided between the Entente powers and the USA.  Britain was given the sector bordering the Rhine (Rhineland) with Cologne selected as the headquarters.  All the surrounding towns and villages were billeted with British troops in hotels and factories and some officers even in private homes. Hospitals and canteens were also established.  The occupying force overall strength was agreed but it was also recognised that it would gradually reduce as veterans were repatriated and demobilised.  For a while these were to be replaced by former Graduated and Young Soldier battalions from Britain that were recategorised as Service Battalions (it became in effect a form of national service for the time that it continued to exist).  You would need to examine the order of battle to see what units were included: http://www.orbat.info/history/volume5/518/Original BAOR.pdf

Edited 4 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bean tool]

Thanks Frogsmile.

 

You know it's all very well and good having the will to research but knowing where to look is even more important! I'll take a look through that link now 👍

[Bean tool]

You know what I cannot see one mention of the Herefords. When the document refers to north, east, south, west divisions is it doing so as that was the location in Britain of the regiments or is the geographical location of the sector they were in in Germany? I think it might be the former but just want to clarify.  Cheers 

 

Dan

[FROGSMILE]

58 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

You know what I cannot see one mention of the Herefords. When the document refers to north, east, south, west divisions is it doing so as that was the location in Britain of the regiments or is the geographical location of the sector they were in in Germany? I think it might be the former but just want to clarify.  Cheers 

 

Dan

The cardinal points, Northern, etc. refers to the geographic region from where the regiments come Dan.  As a Territorial regiment the Hereford’s were most associated with the regular King’s Shropshire Light Infantry and the area of the Welsh/English Marches.  On reflection I don’t think that the Territorial Force provided any units for the occupation army.

Edited 4 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dave66]

Hello Dan,

 

Here is a link to the medal index card via ancestry....https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1262/?name=_Hull&count=50&f-F00061C3=Herefordshire&f-F00061C3_x=1&name_x=s_1

 

And a link to your previous post...

Best of luck,

 

Dave.

 

 

[Bean tool]

Update - just found a document that states on the 31st Jan 1st battalion 34th division were moved by motor lorries to Seelseaid and took over left sub sector of Cologne bridgehead. But still I can't see this in the document Frogsmile kindly supplied. 

[Bean tool]

Thank you Dave ☺👍 I hope you're well. 

 

Frogsmile - how very odd. You know that picture was passed down to my grandmother and the family weren't quite sure where William was within it as there were so many faces. I remember looking at it regularly and one day I noticed a very faint arrow in pencil above a mans head. I showed it to my grandmother who did confirm it was her father. 

 

You mention that the TFs werent there as part of the occupying force so would it be possible that the picture was taken at a hospital? The men did look very worn out and many had injuries (however all were in uniform). I'm thinking out loud! 

 

Cheers

Dan

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

Thank you Dave ☺👍 I hope you're well. 

 

Frogsmile - how very odd. You know that picture was passed down to my grandmother and the family weren't quite sure where William was within it as there were so many faces. I remember looking at it regularly and one day I noticed a very faint arrow in pencil above a mans head. I showed it to my grandmother who did confirm it was her father. 

 

You mention that the TFs werent there as part of the occupying force so would it be possible that the picture was taken at a hospital? The men did look very worn out and many had injuries (however all were in uniform). I'm thinking out loud! 

 

Cheers

Dan

Yes, from your description it is entirely possible that it was a hospital scene. I know that hospitals were set up in the Cologne bridgehead area and I imagine that initially they would have contained wounded from the final stages of fighting leading up to the Armistice.  This would naturally have included some TF wounded, although I imagine most would have been evacuated back to Britain as soon as fit enough to transport safely.  Hospitals in proper, well constructed and heated German buildings, well suited to winter would have been infinitely superior to the wooden huts and duckboard walkways used hitherto.  I suspect this was the scene in your photo.

Edited 4 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bean tool]

Thanks Frogsmile. That certainly all makes sense. Especially since it was under two months since the armistice. If you don't mind me asking your advice......I see two further routes to explore here. Firstly was William injured. Secondly where were these hospitals. How would I go about finding out if he was injured? I've spoken with ref museum and N.A. to no avail 

 

Thanks 

 

Dan

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

Thanks Frogsmile. That certainly all makes sense. Especially since it was under two months since the armistice. If you don't mind me asking your advice......I see two further routes to explore here. Firstly was William injured. Secondly where were these hospitals. How would I go about finding out if he was injured? I've spoken with ref museum and N.A. to no avail 

 

Thanks 

 

Dan

My knowledge of casualty lists is limited Dan, but online local newspaper archives are I understand one place to look and another is regularly published war office casualty lists, although I vaguely recall that they only existed for a set period and not the whole war.  I think it was more sophisticated towards the end though.  As regards where the hospitals were located I can only suggest that you look to see if any books or other studies were published about the occupation. 
 

NB.  I strongly recommend that you also consider researching via the Imperial War Museum, which has some of the very best records concerning WW1:  https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205124759

 

Edited 4 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bean tool]

Right ok that's given me some direction. Let's hope it rains this weekend then I'll be allowed to get stuck into this rather than all the outdoor jobs I've been allocated! 😉

 

You've been a great help, much appreciated.

 

Thanks 

 

Dan

[Gunner Hall]

Pte A C Gibbons of the 6th Herefordshire Regiment is commemorated at the Cologne Southern Cemetery He died 26/8/1918.  There is another Hereford,  Lt Reginald Howell, (1/3rd  Bn) buried at Kassel Died May 1918. So likely both POW.  Could the photo be of the inmates of a prison camp? 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

Right ok that's given me some direction. Let's hope it rains this weekend then I'll be allowed to get stuck into this rather than all the outdoor jobs I've been allocated! 😉

 

You've been a great help, much appreciated.

 

Thanks 

 

Dan

I’m glad to help a little Dan.  As well as those I’ve mentioned I recommend you do some general searches using terms like Cologne Bridgehead 1919, Rhineland Occupation 1919 (try both with German spelling too - Rheinland und Koln), and Rhine Army 1919, plus any terms that you pick up along the way.  Do the internet searches generally, but also in “image search engines” such as google and others, as images will sometimes lead you to writings that you might otherwise have missed. 

Edited 4 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bean tool]

That's interesting. There was no mention in our family that he was ever a POW. These blokes looked messed up if I'm honest, out of 150/200 only a handful were smiling. Most looked shocked, gaunt and injured. I do remember a few chaps on chairs which I assumed were officers. So it could possibly be POWs or hospital. Going from Frogsmile point about TFs not occupying would it be feasible that they could have liberated these camps? Or at least guarded them? 

 

Will do Frogsmile. I can see this one being tricky!

Edited 4 December , 2020 by Bean tool

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

That's interesting. There was no mention in our family that he was ever a POW. These blokes looked messed up if I'm honest, out of 150/200 only a handful were smiling. Most looked shocked, gaunt and injured. I do remember a few chaps on chairs which I assumed were officers. So it could possibly be POWs or hospital. Going from Frogsmile point about TFs not occupying would it be feasible that they could have liberated these camps? Or at least guarded them? 

 

Will do Frogsmile. I can see this one being tricky!

They might have been British prisoners being treated in a German hospital if before the Armistice, but you said your photo mentioned 1919 so I think that scenario more unlikely.

 

As an example of things that can be found online: http://www.shiny7.uk/1920-1938.html

 

Also see the following and don’t miss out the links, notes and references: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Rhineland

 

Here is a link about hospital facilities moving into Germany: http://www.fairestforce.co.uk/27.html

 

And more general detail: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5222843/amp/British-troops-tried-failed-prevent-Hitlers-rise.html

Edited 4 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Chris_Baker]

15 minutes ago, Gunner Hall said:

Pte A C Gibbons of the 6th Herefordshire Regiment is commemorated at the Cologne Southern Cemetery He died 26/8/1918.  There is another Hereford,  Lt Reginald Howell, (1/3rd  Bn) buried at Kassel Died May 1918. So likely both POW.  Could the photo be of the inmates of a prison camp? 

 

There has never been such a unit. Gibbons was actually attached to the 6th (Service) Battalion of the King's Shropshire Light Infantry.

 

Many men of the Herefordshire Regiment were attached to units of the KSLI ... and that opens up a whole new range of possibilities for the group photo.

[Bean tool]

I'd assumed that if William had been transferred into another unti that it would be detailed on his MIC. Am I mistaken and it's listed somewhere else? Thanks

 

Dan

[Chris_Baker]

Attachments (as opposed to transfers and postings) are often omitted from the medal records. The 1918 Absent Voters List for his home area might be something to find.

[Bean tool]

Right ok Chris. I'm at work at the moment so when I get access to my laptop I'll look that up 👍

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

They might have been British prisoners being treated in a German hospital if before the Armistice, but you said your photo mentioned 1919 so I think that scenario more unlikely.

 

As an example of things that can be found online: http://www.shiny7.uk/1920-1938.html

 

Also see the following and don’t miss out the links, notes and references: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Rhineland

 

Here is a link about hospital facilities moving into Germany: http://www.fairestforce.co.uk/27.html

 

And more general detail: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5222843/amp/British-troops-tried-failed-prevent-Hitlers-rise.html

Just seen all this you've provided. Thank you ☺

[PRC]

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

They might have been British prisoners being treated in a German hospital if before the Armistice,

 

I've come across released Prisoners of War being treated in Germany and France well into January and even early February 1919. Some even died there, but I've never found one with surviving service records or newspaper reports to establish whether they were too poorly to travel, or had subsequently rejoined their unit for the occupation. I suspect some of them might have become fluent in German during captivity so a useful asset. The further into 1919 you go, the greater the likelihood that the hospital would hold men whose hospitalisation reflected current service rather than past deprivations as a prisoner.

 

Does make you wonder about the purpose of the picture through - why photograph such a mix if it just reflected the current inmates. Given the transient nature of such an establishment, unless they were the last or first patients in the institution it seems an odd choice of subject. Particularly when it meant getting a whole load of patients out of bed, potentially risking their recovery.

 

Nothing obvious on the International Committee of the Red Cross for this William Hull - however he could have been captured in the last three months of the year, by which stage the notification system on the German side seems to have rapidly deterioated. Have the casualty lists been checked? I assume there are no pension ledger cards showing up on Ancestry or Fold3?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Bean tool]

Typically the 'absent voters list' for Hereford is apparently missing. 

 

I'm leaning towards William being attached to another unit. Every chap in the picture was wearing uniform. There were no orderleys, nurses or doctors that I remember. Just a huge group of battered blokes. I need to get hold of the war diary for whoever he was fighting with to see when their last action was. Maybe that would shed some clues.