FROGSMILE Posted 3 December , 2020 Share Posted 3 December , 2020 Just now, Steven Broomfield said: I know - I missed that bit of the discussion (Incidentally, and off topic but in reference to a comment you made elsewhere, Tasker Watkins, VC, was from the Welch Regiment ) Thanks Steven, so he was! He became a high court judge after the war. My father worked with him and said he was a real gentleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 3 December , 2020 Share Posted 3 December , 2020 16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Thanks Steven, so he was! He became a high court judge after the war. My father worked with him and said he was a real gentleman. And stalwart of the Welsh Rugby Union Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 December , 2020 Share Posted 3 December , 2020 18 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: And stalwart of the Welsh Rugby Union Ah yes, how could I leave that bit out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitzyJ Posted 14 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2021 I have an update after over 6 months: I finally tracked down an online version of the Absent Voters List for North Paddington in 1919: I'm interpreting that to be 2283, Quartermaster Sergeant Major (?) of the Guards Machine Gun Regiment? My understanding is that the "GMG" didn't come to fruition until 1918, though it did form from battalions of other units (link and link), so it could still mean he was with another unit before then as this information comes from the 1919 Electoral Roll. So he could still have been in 6th Dragoons 191x-1918 or 1919 but on on ERE as suggested much earlier in this thread. I don't think a surviving example of the 1918 Absent Voter list exists for North Paddington, otherwise I would check to see if that one contains different regiment. I've got nothing so far using the service number 2283 unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 June , 2021 Share Posted 15 June , 2021 It does appear to be Guards Machine Gun Regiment (GMGR), but as you’ve said that did not form until 1918. Previously there was a Guards Machine Gun Battalion, so I suppose that it’s possibly a mistaken entry by the clerk. After all, for many civilian clerks with no military experience the difference could be lost in translation. The GMGR was formed by merging that ‘battalion’ with the dismounted regiments of the Household Cavalry. There was no such rank as quarter-master-sergeant major in the British service so that seems likely to be a clerical error too. Interestingly the Household Cavalry had (still have) an ancient tradition of not using the term sergeant, replacing it instead with corporal, so that regimental sergeant major becomes regimental corporal major (RCM) and regimental quarter-master sergeant becomes regimental quarter-master corporal (RQMC). I have no idea which style the GMGR adopted! NB. Going right back to your original photo in the opening post, the general shape of the cap badge might possibly be that of the GMGR. It seems feasible then that it shows him as RQMS at Combermere Barracks, from whence the Household Cavalry elements that went to make up the GMGR, when it was formed, were based (it was their RHQ and training depot). The question now is the precise chronology and course that he took to get from the 6th (Inng) Dragoons to the GMGR. Afternote: It’s not something that’s crossed my mind before but the GMGR would have needed a RHQ, and given that three of the four units that went to make it up were from the Household Cavalry, it seems likely to me that it was established at Combermere Barracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitzyJ Posted 15 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2021 9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: There was no such rank as quarter-master-sergeant major in the British service so that seems likely to be a clerical error too. Interestingly the Household Cavalry had (still have) an ancient tradition of not using the term sergeant, replacing it instead with corporal, so that regimental sergeant major becomes regimental corporal major (RCM) and regimental quarter-master sergeant becomes regimental quarter-master corporal (RQMC). I have no idea which style the GMGR adopted! I'm glad you said that as I got so few returns for Quartermaster Sergeant Major that I thought it was an extremely obscure appointment. It makes more sense that he's a RQSM as per his inscription in the Pressed Flowers book here. Short lived units like the GMGR don't get much written about them, so god knows what they picked (if they picked anything) 9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: NB. Going right back to your original photo in the opening post, the general shape of the cap badge might possibly be that of the GMGR. It seems feasible then that it shows him as RQMS at Combermere Barracks, from whence the Household Cavalry elements that went to make up the GMGR, when it was formed, were based (it was their RHQ and training depot). The question now is the precise chronology and course that he took to get from the 6th (Inng) Dragoons to the GMGR. Afternote: It’s not something that’s crossed my mind before but the GMGR would have needed a RHQ, and given that three of the four units that went to make it up were from the Household Cavalry, it seems likely to me that it was established at Combermere Barracks. I too saw that the cap badge (here) could be the first GMGR one that you posed, but unfortunately that's about as good a quality photo I've got unless I try to scan a new one when I get the chance to see it again. Not much is written about the GMGR, let alone a RHQ I assume RQSM 'appointments' were not seen as important enough to get mentioned in a Gazette or some place. I'm tempted to spend money by asking the Household Cavalry to dig through their archives at Combermere, on the off chance that he appears in their archive somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 June , 2021 Share Posted 15 June , 2021 56 minutes ago, FitzyJ said: I'm glad you said that as I got so few returns for Quartermaster Sergeant Major that I thought it was an extremely obscure appointment. It makes more sense that he's a RQSM as per his inscription in the Pressed Flowers book here. Short lived units like the GMGR don't get much written about them, so god knows what they picked (if they picked anything) I too saw that the cap badge (here) could be the first GMGR one that you posed, but unfortunately that's about as good a quality photo I've got unless I try to scan a new one when I get the chance to see it again. Not much is written about the GMGR, let alone a RHQ I assume RQSM 'appointments' were not seen as important enough to get mentioned in a Gazette or some place. I'm tempted to spend money by asking the Household Cavalry to dig through their archives at Combermere, on the off chance that he appears in their archive somewhere The correct abbreviation is RQMS (less the Household Cavalry) meaning Regimental Quarter-Master Sergeant, so I think it’s merely a case of the compiler mixing up the letters from RQMS to RQSM. As I explained there’s no such thing as RQSM. A better scan of the photo might well give us a better view of the badge, but from its general shape I think that GMG is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitzyJ Posted 15 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2021 I can't believe I completely forgot to mention that this resurfaced during the intervening 6 months since I was posting in December last year: Which was great to (re)find. Service number 4549 puts him joining early 1901 I think according to Army Service Numbers blog, possibly Feb/Mar. This would make him about 17 (born Feb 1884) (bit young?). The 1901 date matches with the "8 Years" of good service as of 1909. He left on 20th March 1909 as a Lance Corporal. This puts a spanner in the works slightly, as the photo on Page 1: On 02/12/2020 at 01:29, FitzyJ said: is clearly Sergeant stripes. So I think this blows the consensus on the timeline out a bit. I think the timeline is now sort of: Feb 1884: Born in Exeter, Devon. Early 1901: Joins 6th Inniskilling Dragoons as Private H Berry Between 1901-1909 : Photo taken of H Berry in Patrol Jacket (link). Private, sporting 2 years GCB and Musketry classification badge (cheers for that info @FROGSMILE) 20 Mar 1909: Leaves 6th Inniskilling Dragoons as 4549 Lce Cpl H Berry according to Good Service Medal above 2 Apr 1911: Living in Paddington, Postal Porter Nov 1911: Marries Nellie Bailey in Paddington ????: Re-joins Army, assumed 6th Inniskilling Dragoons again, assumed joins/recalled after outbreak of War. 1914-1919: Works in Windsor (Combermere Barracks) for the entire war and beyond. ????: Photo taken in Sergeant stripes with 6D on shoulder? ????: Inscription in Flower Book of "RQM Sgt H Berry, 6th Dragoons (Inniskilling)". This could be over multiple years though. Spring (and possibly Autumn) 1919: Listed as QMSM (assumed RQMS), in Guards Machine Gun Regiment Feb 1920: Birth of Daughter Nellie, certificate names him as "Postman ex Army". There is still a chance I suppose that he left 6D as a Sergeant and that the medal was still inscribed with Lce Cpl? That would explain the Sergeant photo anyway, with the weird shoulder title. What's weird is that this Good Service badge doesn't appear on the Regiment's list of good conduct badges issued for the 6th Dragoons (WO 102/17/2), very confusing. It covers the right date period but nothing! I have two service numbers: 4549 for first service and 2283 for second service, neither of which have proved useful for getting any more information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 June , 2021 Share Posted 15 June , 2021 (edited) Given the regimental commemorative medal dated with an inscription for 1909, I agree that the photo as a sergeant might relate to 1914. We also have to bear in mind that it’s also possible that in the photo he’s a Lance Sergeant, which was an appointment for full Corporal’s with similar status and usage to Lance Corporal (i.e. an temporary appointment rather than a substantive rank). It doesn’t make sense for a Sergeant to still be wearing a pre 1907, two-piece style of shoulder title if the photo was taken in 1914. Edited 15 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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