Unit Identification - Possibly cavalry

[FROGSMILE]

Your option 2 is by far the most likely scenario.  I don’t think he could have reached RQMS during his initial engagement.  It took most men an entire career to do so.  However, rejoining during WW1 with more life experience and an army denuded of its regular SNCOs overseas, his previous service as a Sgt would have stood him in excellent stead.  An employment as ERE is extremely likely and in the local (to Windsor) cavalry barracks. Remember he would have been totally at home with cavalry unit routine and entirely familiar with all the things that an RQMS engaged with, such as equine feed, water, tack and soldiers rations and clothing.  The brooch is of a type worn by ladies and falls into the ‘sweetheart’ category.  It's not impossible that he could have joined a different regiment, but in this case very unlikely and all your evidence suggests that he returned to his parent regiment but served at home.

Edited 2 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Tom K]

 

2 hours ago, FitzyJ said:

would he be entitled to any medals?

 

He would/should be eligible for the War Medal. 

 

As mentioned - he likely didn't get any medals for South Africa because he was there too late and didn't meet the criteria.

Edited 2 December , 2020 by Tom K

[Dragoon]

29 minutes ago, Tom K said:

 

 

He would/should be eligible for the War Medal. 

 

As mentioned - he likely didn't get any medals for South Africa because he was there too late and didn't meet the criteria.

I thought you had to have served in an active service country to be entitled to it, not UK?

 

Chris 

[TullochArd]

27 minutes ago, Tom K said:

He would/should be eligible for the War Medal. 

 

I beg to contradict Tom K.  My understanding is that Home Service (Windsor, England) would have attracted no medallic recognition.  

[FitzyJ]

19 hours ago, FitzyJ said:

 

 

Simply googling "Combermere Barracks 1915" led me to this photo:

 

 

Common British military architecture aside, this seems a perfect match

 

[TullochArd]

22 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

I thought you had to have served in an active service country to be entitled to it, not UK?

 

I'm with you Chris. 

 

There are occasional rare and special instances of the BWM (without BVM) was awarded to certain Regular and mobilised personnel who didn't see any active service (e.g. Lt Col Henry Webb 23rd Battalion Liverpool Regiment, Bart., M.P. etc)  however, the award is always accompanied by an MIC which we do not seem to have here.

Edited 2 December , 2020 by TullochArd

[TullochArd]

9 minutes ago, FitzyJ said:

Common British military architecture aside, this seems a perfect match

 

Looking like a good spot there FitzyJ. 

 

A site plan may now locate the room/window the "Parade" photo was taken from and, if was identifiable offices/stores may even provide further clues for you.

 

Good luck!

[FitzyJ]

1 minute ago, TullochArd said:

 

Looking like a good spot there FitzyJ. 

 

A site plan may now locate the room/window the "Parade" photo was taken from and, if was identifiable offices/stores may even provide further clues for you.

 

Good luck!

 

Good idea, that's positively Sherlockesque! 

 

I'll contact the Household Cavalry museum archive to see if they can help

[TullochArd]

2 minutes ago, FitzyJ said:

I'll contact the Household Cavalry museum archive to see if they can help

 

I'm sure we'd all like to know the result of that - please keep us in the loop.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, FitzyJ said:

 

Simply googling "Combermere Barracks 1915" led me to this photo:

 

Common British military architecture aside, this seems a perfect match

 

 

Definitely looks like the same barracks as in your subject's faded photo I agree.  Good spot!

[Tom K]

 

 

13 hours ago, TullochArd said:

My understanding is that Home Service (Windsor, England) would have attracted no medallic recognition.

 

Thank you for that - you learn something new every day.  I had been under the impression that the criteria for award were intended to be applied uniformly across the Empire and the Dominions and extrapolated the situation here in Canada to the that in Great Britain.  It is apparent that there was a difference in application.  (Clearly what they say about the word ASSUME is correct!).  

 

In the case of Canada, at least some of those who volunteered or were called up for service, but never landed in a theatre of war were awarded the BWM.  This includes both those who embarked for the UK (who could perhaps legitimately be considered as serving "away from home"), and some who appear not to have left Canada including members of Canadian Depot Battalions, Canadian Tank Battalions in the process of formation, Corps Units, and perhaps most significantly, Canadian personnel enlisted in the RAF and who served at Flight Training Centres in Canada. 

 

Tom K.

Edited 3 December , 2020 by Tom K

[JOVE23]

On 01/12/2020 at 16:55, TullochArd said:

..... I note no SA ribbons worn in the first portrait. 

Could it also be that he does have a SA ribbon, but worn high above the breast pocket in the "old style" and thus covered up by the bandolier?

[FROGSMILE]

If he had SA medal ribbons I think they would just about have been discernible in the later photo of him as a RQMS even though it is faded, but you’re right that if he’d had any they might easily have been obscured by his bandolier.

[Muerrisch]

On 01/12/2020 at 20:05, FROGSMILE said:

 

I don't think that the G can be separate Chris.  It was never issued in that form, but was always conjoined to the D.  However, there were several types.  The most common was joined at the bottom, as per that whose photo is posted above.  The other types were all joined by a horizontal sprue positioned in the centre of each letter.  This would be difficult to see and also give the optical illusion of separate letters.  All types could be bent which of course made matters worse!  Do you have the Westlake book Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles?

 

NB.  The pre 1907 STs are quite rare as they were only worn on certain forms of dress overseas.  At home woven worsted was used on frocks/patrol jackets, and twisted shoulder cords without titles on full dress garments, apart from DG who also used woven worsted titles on full dress.

 

I have half a dozen separate G shoulder title letters, with individual or dual backing plates,  in my spares box. As such, made up GG CG SG IG and readily available in the period. Any enterprising SNCO of Dragoons could get hold of one. Depends on date of photo, of course

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I have half a dozen separate G shoulder title letters, with individual or dual backing plates,  in my spares box. As such, made up GG CG SG IG and readily available in the period. Any enterprising SNCO of Dragoons could get hold of one. Depends on date of photo, of course

Yes it’s quite feasible to use a foot guards G if they are the same size as the Dragoons D.  My point in this case was purely that, according to Westlake, the supply chain provided only conjoined DG, with the variation in connection that I’ve described, whereas as all the others were of course single letters (D, H, L).  My reference was to cavalry issue, as was plain I think given the clear context of the thread.  After 1907 the one piece titles took off and became increasingly varied as each regiment defied efforts to create a standardised appearance.

 

Edited 3 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

10 hours ago, JOVE23 said:

Could it also be that he does have a SA ribbon, but worn high above the breast pocket in the "old style" and thus covered up by the bandolier?

 

Certainly could be JOVE23. 

 

P.S. I checked QSA/KSA Medal Rolls and found nothing.

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it’s quite feasible to use a foot guards G if they are the same size as the Dragoons D.  My point in this case was purely that, according to Westlake, the supply chain provided only conjoined DG, with the variation in connection that I’ve described, whereas as all the others were of course single letters (D, H, L).  My reference was to cavalry issue, as was plain I think given the clear context of the thread.  After 1907 the one piece titles took off and became increasingly varied as each regiment defied efforts to create a standardised appearance.

The matter of "issue" became irrelevant ......as you say, each regiment defied standardisation. (And individuals).

There are people on Gwf without Westlake and more knowledgeable members tend to be taken as Gospel.

Separate G s were 10 a penny.

Date of portrait is critical.

[TullochArd]

15 hours ago, Tom K said:

In the case of Canada, at least some of those who volunteered or were called up for service, but never landed in a theatre of war were awarded the BWM. 

 

..... and I believe the same was true of ANZAC troops.  It's a tough one for UK relatives to comprehend particularly when, although not widely known at the time, certain high ranking individuals received a single BWM for service solely in the UK.  This anomaly apart, the over-riding general principle is risk and rigour.  ANZAC and CEF troops deployed on active service from their home country and transited through dangerous waters to get to a specific Theatre.  They deployed en-masse and all inevitably ended up in in an active theatre of operations almost to a man.  Single BWM are not uncommon in the British Army e.g. Cpl H. Hartley of 605 Motor Transport Company, A.S.C., lost his life in the sinking of the S.S. Città-de-Palermo in the Lower Adriatic on January 8th, 1916 having simply transited through France and embarked on the ship days before - he received a single BWM for his service.  Some Garrison troops also received a single BWM - and some did not - notably in the case of the Falkland Island Volunteers.

 

If the risk and rigour principle is applied fairly it seems understandable we have found no medallic recognition for Herbert Berry.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

The matter of "issue" became irrelevant ......as you say, each regiment defied standardisation. (And individuals).

There are people on Gwf without Westlake and more knowledgeable members tend to be taken as Gospel.

Separate G s were 10 a penny.

Date of portrait is critical.

Separate Gs were indeed ten-a-penny for Foot Guards, they were not so for Dragoon Guards and their quartermasters.  That was and remains the only point I was making and I stand by it.  I leave it to others to make up their own minds. 

Edited 3 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

On 01/12/2020 at 16:34, FitzyJ said:

 

That's what I initially thought, but I was put off by the lack of a 'G', or space for it on the rank slide/shoulder board. 

There is a possibility, I suppose, that this photo was taken pre-1907 then if he is sporting pieces of the "wrong" era for the First World War?

 

 

 

Like Dragoon, that's been my opinion from the get-go: you can't see THREE letters/numerals - just a number which is unclear and a very obvious 'D'. I don't think there is room for a third letter beyond the D.

 

Personally, and given that he was in the 6th Dragoons (Inniskilling), I wonder if it's not a 6 (slightly deformed by the angle), followed by a D. He was obviously in the 6th Dragoons, so why do we not assume this is either a photo of him in the original service with the Colours, or after he returned at the outbreak of war.

 

Makes much more sense to me, and also renders rather redundant the discussion about where he may or may not have acquired a G.

 

 

Edited 3 December , 2020 by Steven Broomfield

[FitzyJ]

On 02/12/2020 at 13:23, FROGSMILE said:

The brooch is of a type worn by ladies and falls into the ‘sweetheart’ category.

 

I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. Herbert got married in 1911 after leaving the 6Ds; so he either bought this brooch before leaving to give to a future 'sweetheart' / lady he's courting, or it could mean he bought/acquired* it after re-joining the 6Ds. I assume something like this is the kind of item a RQMS could "acquire" relatively easily given what must pass under his nose.

 

 

On a separate strand, I've since found Herbert Berry and his Wife in the 1918 and 1919 electoral registers at a different address. In both 1918 and 1919, Herbert has a small 'a' next to his surname in the register, which denotes that he is an absentee voter, with a code next to his name denoting active military service. I've checked with the local (to the address) archives and they have a copy of the 1919 Absent Voter List. According to the Long Long Trail, these lists often contained service numbers and Regiment/Unit. Due to the ongoing COVID-related restrictions at the moment, it's unlikely I'll be able to visit for a short while. But this could be quite promising... 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, FitzyJ said:

 

I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. Herbert got married in 1911 after leaving the 6Ds; so he either bought this brooch before leaving to give to a future 'sweetheart' / lady he's courting, or it could mean he bought/acquired* it after re-joining the 6Ds. I assume something like this is the kind of item a RQMS could "acquire" relatively easily given what must pass under his nose.

 

 

On a separate strand, I've since found Herbert Berry and his Wife in the 1918 and 1919 electoral registers at a different address. In both 1918 and 1919, Herbert has a small 'a' next to his surname in the register, which denotes that he is an absentee voter, with a code next to his name denoting active military service. I've checked with the local (to the address) archives and they have a copy of the 1919 Absent Voter List. According to the Long Long Trail, these lists often contained service numbers and Regiment/Unit. Due to the ongoing COVID-related restrictions at the moment, it's unlikely I'll be able to visit for a short while. But this could be quite promising... 

 

Yes, I think you’re along the right lines.  The brooch itself is middle quality and would I think have been beyond his reach affordability wise during his first engagement.  I strongly suspect that he bought it during his time as a RQMS, when he would have been at the peak of his earning potential.  It is a commercial item and not issue, but in the midst of war the market was large and they became more affordable due to the scale of production.

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Like Dragoon, that's been my opinion from the get-go: you can't see THREE letters/numerals - just a number which is unclear and a very obvious 'D'. I don't think there is room for a third letter beyond the D.

 

Personally, and given that he was in the 6th Dragoons (Inniskilling), I wonder if it's not a 6 (slightly deformed by the angle), followed by a D. He was obviously in the 6th Dragoons, so why do we not assume this is either a photo of him in the original service with the Colours, or after he returned at the outbreak of war.

 

Makes much more sense to me, and also renders rather redundant the discussion about where he may or may not have acquired a G.

 

I’d agreed that he was Dragoons way back in the thread Steven and already reached the conclusion that the DG discussion had become academic.  It was not my choice to resurrect it, as you will see when reading through.

Edited 3 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Separate Gs were indeed ten-a-penny for Foot Guards, they were not so for Dragoon Guards and their quartermasters.  That was and remains the only point I was making and I stand by it.  I leave it to others to make up their own minds. 

 

As do I.

[Steven Broomfield]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’d agreed that he was Dragoons way back in the thread Steven and already reached the conclusion that the DG discussion had become academic.  It was not my choice to resurrect it, as you will see when reading through.

 

I know - I missed that bit of the discussion

 

(Incidentally, and off topic but in reference to a comment you made elsewhere, Tasker Watkins, VC, was from the Welch Regiment  )