Unit Identification - Possibly cavalry

[FitzyJ]

Good day everyone, 

 

I hope you can help me,

 

I'm having difficulty finding any records of one of my Great-Grandfathers, who I know was in the British Army during the Great War. I have this portrait photo:

 

 

He's clearly a Sergeant from the stripes, and the Bandolier suggests a Cavalry regiment (?)

The shoulder badge looks like "3 D" or possibly "3 H", which would presumably translate to 3rd Dragoon [Guards] and 3rd Hussars. It could even be "3 1", but that seems least likely. I'm not sure if it's odd not to have collar badges, nor wear a cap in the portrait photo.

 

However, when I Google shoulder badges for those units, the badges have connecting horizontal bars between the characters, whereas the 'badge' in this photo look like two distinct characters. Further, the 3rd Dragoon Guards are shortened to "3DG" on all their badges.

 

The family story is that his handwriting was so good/clear that he was given a clerk-type job, away from the front. I'm not actually sure whether he even left for France. I cannot find his service record on Ancestry (could be burnt), nor his medal index card (too many of the same name).

 

He was formerly of the 6th Dragoons (Inniskilling) at the end of the Boer War (circa 1902/1903), which was also a Cavalry regiment. He's shown in the 1911 Census as a Civilian living in Paddington, London. I'm aware that those who previously served in the Army were brought back as Sergeant for the War. It would also make sense for him to be put back in a Cavalry unit. 

 

Does anyone recognise the shoulder badge, or any other identifying features from the uniform in this photo?

 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. His name would help. I can certainly see a D on the shoulder title but can’t make out the other numeral or letter.

Michelle 

[FitzyJ]

1 minute ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum. His name would help. I can certainly see a D on the shoulder title but can’t make out the other numeral or letter.

Michelle 

 

Thank you

 

His name was Herbert Berry, no middle name. Born 1884 in Exeter, seemingly moved to London after leaving the army at some point after returning from South Africa. Married in 1911 in London.

 

I've just looked again at the medal index cards. And, assuming he was entitled to a medal, there is no perfect match for his name and rank, only a 'H Berry' of the West Riding (DoW's) regiment, which was seemingly a line infantry unit which doesn't match the cavalry background/assumption.

[FROGSMILE]

He is 3rd PWO Dragoon Guards according to his shoulder title.

 

However, there’s something unusual about his shoulder titles that seem to be in old-style individual pieces rather than the one piece introduced in 1907 (see image).  Ergo I’m not 100% sure, but given what you’ve said it seems the most likely.

 

 

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Tom K]

It certainly looks like a "D" - the numeral could be a 5, but to me it does look like a 3. 

 

Although it makes sense that he would be in a mounted unit, and certainly the "D" seems to imply as much, the bandolier does not necessarily signify that. It was part of the 1903 bandolier equipment which during the Great War was standard issue for anyone armed with a rifle who was not in the infantry.  I mention this only so that you do not constrain your thinking. 

 

Could this be police/prison insignia?

 

Tom K.

[FitzyJ]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He is 3rd PWO Dragoon Guards according to his shoulder title.

 

However, there’s something unusual about his shoulder titles that seem to be in old-style individual pieces rather than the one piece introduced in 1907 (see image).  Ergo I’m not 100% sure, but given what you’ve said it seems the most likely.

 

 

That's what I initially thought, but I was put off by the lack of a 'G', or space for it on the rank slide/shoulder board. 

There is a possibility, I suppose, that this photo was taken pre-1907 then if he is sporting pieces of the "wrong" era for the First World War?

 

4 minutes ago, Tom K said:

It certainly looks like a "D" - the numeral could be a 5, but to me it does look like a 3. 

 

Although it makes sense that he would be in a mounted unit, and certainly the "D" seems to imply as much, the bandolier does not necessarily signify that. It was part of the 1903 bandolier equipment which during the Great War was standard issue for anyone armed with a rifle who was not in the infantry.  I mention this only so that you do not constrain your thinking. 

 

Could this be police/prison insignia?

 

Tom K.

 

Ah ok, I won't assume it's Cavalry then!

His marriage certificate from 1911 says he is a Postal Porter, so there could be some obscure Army Postal unit that used individual shoulder badges pieces, à la the Police. 

[FROGSMILE]

Here is an example of the pre 1907 shoulder title insignia that comprised separate numerals and letters, with Dragoon Guards alone having a numeral and then two letters conjoined.  I believe that is what is seen in your photo.  As there was no 3rd Dragoons I cannot see it being anything but Dragoon Guards.  In my opinion he is most definitely a cavalry SNCO.  I strongly suspect that he’s wearing the pre 1907 D of his old regiment that he’s somehow retained (from his time as a reservist) and the number of his new regiment.  It’s unusual but he’s used his initiative to create his own title that cannot be confused despite the missing G.  I quite admire him for it.
 

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FitzyJ]

 

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Here is an example of the pre 1907 shoulder title insignia that comprised separate numerals and letters, with Dragoon Guards alone having a numeral and then two letters conjoined.  I believe that is what is seen in your photo.  As there was no 3rd Dragoons I cannot see it being anything but Dragoon Guards.  In my opinion he is most definitely a cavalry SNCO.  I strongly suspect that he’s wearing the pre 1907 D of his old regiment that he’s somehow retained (from his time as a reservist) and the number of his new regiment.  It’s unusual but he’s used his initiative to create his own title that cannot be confused despite the missing G.  I quite admire him for it.

 

I really like this theory, and it makes sense. However, I've just spoken with a family member; Herbert Berry never left England and he was based "in Windsor" then entire war. Seeing as the 3DG was in Egypt and then France, this pretty much rules out the 3DG.

 

I only have two other photos, both of which are fairly useless for identification due to the blurry/grainy nature. But I think the first shows him sporting Warrant Officer (?) rank? and that Cap Badge could be anything.

A souvenir flower book from his 6th Dragoons days is inscribed with "RQM Sgt Herbert Berry". It's possible he was brought back into the Army as a Sergeant, and then promoted RQMS at Windsor? Unless I'm missing somewhere obvious to look if RQMS appointments are easily verifiable. Otherwise he's "just" a Warrant Officer if my eyes are correct.

 

 

 

[Dragoon]

The first picture is not 3rd Dragoon Guards.

During the Boer War the 3rd Dragoon Guards wore separate letters, 3 on top, separate D desperate G below.

The first photo, Herbert is still in the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, or simply 6th Dragoons, the shoulder title is '6 D'.

The 6 you can make out if you zoom in.

I have photos of cavalry wearing the 'old' Pattern separate titles of most regiments, the 3rd Dragoon Guards I've only seen WW1 period wearing the 3DG title FROGSMILE shows.

Hope this helps.

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

RQMS were made warrant officers in the new Class II level in mid 1915.  He is certainly wearing a WOII badge of rank introduced that year, although bear in mind that he could have been employed in an acting rank and still be a substantive staff sergeant or even sergeant.

 

It might have been the case that he was badged 3rdDG (or even 6thD) whilst at the cavalry depot at Windsor (one of many during WW1).  You did not have to be with a regiment in the field to wear its badge, you just had to be on its books and then it was your 'parent unit'.

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

The first picture is not 3rd Dragoon Guards.

During the Boer War the 3rd Dragoon Guards wore separate letters, 3 on top, separate D desperate G below.

The first photo, Herbert is still in the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, or simply 6th Dragoons, the shoulder title is '6 D'.

The 6 you can make out if you zoom in.

I have photos of cavalry wearing the 'old' Pattern separate titles of most regiments, the 3rd Dragoon Guards I've only seen WW1 period wearing the 3DG title FROGSMILE shows.

Hope this helps.

 

Chris

 

It does seem possible that he is still wearing the 6th Dragoons ST if you can see that when blown up in size.  I can't see it myself, but the shape is not easy to determine the difference.  I'd be interested to get a further opinion from Pete @CorporalPunishment?

 

Although I don't doubt what you say for the 3rd DG wearing the numeral above the letters, I've not found any evidence that the D and G were separate as you've quoted.  Ray Westlake lists the variations from clothing references as DG-Dragoon Guards, D-Dragoons, H-Hussars, L-Lancers, all with numerals separate.

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

It does seem possible that he is still wearing the 6th Dragoons ST if you can see that when blown up in size.  I can't see it myself but the shape is not easy to determine the difference.

 

Although I don't doubt what you say for the 3rd DG wearing the numeral above the letters, I've not found any evidence that the D and G were separate.  Ray Westlake lists the variations and their reference as DG-Dragoon Guards, D-Dragoons, H-Hussars, L-Lancers.

Hi FROGSMILE

I have photos, that I can't show, of the 3DG's wearing separate 3 D G titles during the Boer War.

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Hi FROGSMILE

I have photos, that I can't show, of the 3DG's wearing separate 3 D G titles during the Boer War.

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think that the G can be separate Chris.  It was never issued in that form, but was always conjoined to the D.  However, there were several types.  The most common was joined at the bottom, as per that whose photo is posted above.  The other types were all joined by a horizontal sprue positioned in the centre of each letter.  This would be difficult to see and also give the optical illusion of separate letters.  All types could be bent which of course made matters worse!  Do you have the Westlake book Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles?

 

NB.  The pre 1907 STs are quite rare as they were only worn on certain forms of dress overseas.  At home woven worsted was used on frocks/patrol jackets, and twisted shoulder cords without titles on full dress garments, apart from DG who also used woven worsted titles on full dress.

Edited 2 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The D and G titles are 100% separate, in a triangle shape.

        3

    D.    G

 

I'll ask my family member if I'm allowed to show part of the photo.

Cheers 

Chris

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

The D and G titles are 100% separate, in a triangle shape.

        3

    D.    G

 

I'll ask my family member if I'm allowed to show part of the photo.

Cheers 

Chris

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's very interesting and the photo would be excellent.  I wonder if it was simply a case of cutting off the central sprue.  It would have been easy to do.  As I just said I don't doubt at all that the numeral was worn above.  See enclosed for a 7th DG example.  Notice again the join at bottom in this case.  The letters were certainly not 'issued' separately by the supply chain, but there's nothing to stop a unit from separating them with a metal cutter!  Each letter had a loop on the back.

 

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Here's one of the types with a central sprue.  Notice the large letters.  It was not just the KDG that wore these.

 

 

[FitzyJ]

32 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

...

The first photo, Herbert is still in the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, or simply 6th Dragoons, the shoulder title is '6 D'.

The 6 you can make out if you zoom in.

 

Thanks Chris!

Now that you mention it, I can definitely see a 6:

 

 

Which, if so, means all I've done is ask for a unit identification of a unit I knew he was in before the war  But I at least know it's not a First World War photo. And it's just an updated portrait from this beauty:

 

With his good conduct chevron (2 years?) and skill at arms badge.

 

After South Africa, the 6th Dragoons went to Egypt (I think - I've lost the unit movement history). Herbert picked up a touristy book of pressed flowers and the cover says "Jerusalem - Natural Flowers from the Holy Land" inscribed with what I wrote above, which I assume he picked up in Egypt or Palestine. The original (Sergeant) photo might have been taken around then (between 1903-1911) as the uniform started to change..? I don't yet know when he left the 6th Dragoons.

 

I'm still researching which units were stationed in Windsor, but I don't think I'll be able to narrow it down with the information I currently have.

 

[Tom K]

It does not seem as though there is a second letter beside the "D" - nor does it appear that there is space for one. In the "blow up" the numeral could also be a 6.

 

Whoops - too slow!

Edited 1 December , 2020 by Tom K

[FROGSMILE]

Yes it’s all confirmed as 6th Dragoons now, although it’s a distorted view of the 6. He’s wearing 1902 service dress, 1903 bandolier and as his shoulder titles are pre-1907 pattern that helps to date the photo.  His promotion dates should confirm matters.

 

That’s a super photo showing him in a patrol jacket.  You’re right that his GCB is for two years blemish free service and the badge for passing the musketry classification shoot.

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Connect Dragoon's earlier post ..........

 

Both 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons and 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) served in the SA War and Great War.  Clearly by the collar badges on the second portrait we are looking at Herbert Berry as a soldier of the 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons. 

 

Perhaps it may be useful if we all steer away from using "6th Dragoons" to avoid research rabbit holes - it's certainly causing me a headache.

 

Could the "6D" and "6DG" shoulder title conundrum/absence of a "G" be something to do with the Army/Unit differentiating between the two Dragoon regiments both rather confusingly generally abbreviated, here and elsewhere, as simply 6th Dragoons as "6D" and 6DG"?

 

..... I note no SA ribbons worn in the first portrait. 

 

Great photos FitzyJ

Edited 2 December , 2020 by TullochArd

[FitzyJ]

2 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

..... I note no SA ribbons worn in the first portrait. 

 

 

I think Herbert Berry arrived in South Africa after the Second Boer War had already ended, or just ending, so maybe 1902-1903. He was born in 1884, so he would have only been 16 if arriving in 1900.  He then left the 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons at RQMS before the First World War. Looking at the British Campaign Medals, I don't see any that he could qualify for; he wasn't in SA early/long enough to qualify for QSA or KSA medals. I don't think he took a pension either, so he doesn't really appear on any lists at TNA anywhere. Muster books seemingly ended in 1898 so there's a bit of a black hole that he's fallen into with regards to records.

 

He then re-joins the Army (but not the 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons as they were abroad) during the First World War, but I only have that poor sepia photo above from that period.

 

I have another Great-Grandfather who was in the Royal Munster Fusiliers for 5 years prior to the First World War, then joined the Army again in 1914 and was put in the Royal Field Artillery.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I repeat that you should not assume that he was not badged 6th (Inng) Dragoons just because they were abroad, that is not how the Army works.  There is no reason why he may not have re-enlisted with his original parent unit but be kept in Britain and deployed in an extra-regimental employment (ERE), especially as a SNCO. 

Edited 2 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

8 hours ago, FitzyJ said:

I'm still researching which units were stationed in Windsor, but I don't think I'll be able to narrow it down with the information I currently have.

 

If I m reading LLT correctly we have London Command's Combermere Barracks, Windsor (Cavalry) and Victoria Barracks, Windsor (Infantry) around this time.  That's about it.  On the "Parade" photo the three storey Barrack Block with open verandah proves a sadly common feature of period military architecture. 

 

I'll go with Frogsmile on his observation on ERE as being potentially most valid.  

 

9 hours ago, FitzyJ said:

A souvenir flower book from his 6th Dragoons days is inscribed with "RQM Sgt Herbert Berry". It's possible he was brought back into the Army as a Sergeant, and then promoted RQMS at Windsor?

 

Sounds possible. His recorded RQMS appointment would have been a truly meteroric example if only his 1900-ish to sometime before 1911 (being a civilian on the 1911 Census) was considered.  That said,, from an Infantry perspective I'd say "there's nowt stranger than Cavalry" ........ so anything's possible. 

 

Dragoon will be back soon to clear thing's up 

Edited 2 December , 2020 by TullochArd

[Dragoon]

I'm not back to totally clear things up, trust me, FROGSMILE is the Sherlock Holmes of these matters.

And I totally agree with him, ERE is most likely the case, you remain badged to your parent unit, so he could have been posted anywhere in the UK on ERE still badged 6D's, with many other cap badges around him.

I hope this helps, 

 

Chris

 

[FitzyJ]

Thank you for everything so far everyone, it's been incredibly useful.

 

1 hour ago, Dragoon said:

I'm not back to totally clear things up, trust me, FROGSMILE is the Sherlock Holmes of these matters.

And I totally agree with him, ERE is most likely the case, you remain badged to your parent unit, so he could have been posted anywhere in the UK on ERE still badged 6D's, with many other cap badges around him.

I hope this helps, 

 

Chris

 

 

I agree that if he re-joined the 6Ds then it would make sense to be ERE. But forgive my ignorance, what's stopping them assigning him to any other unit when he re-joined, particularly to one that was just based in Windsor the whole war? (assuming one such unit/regiment existed). Did they prefer people to re-enter units they served in previously? Perhaps my other G-Grandfather was an anomaly at re-entering in the RFA having previously been in the RMF.

 

Regarding Herbert's timeline, this is the inscription I was referring to:

So there's two possibilities, or two possible timelines rather:

1) Joins 6Ds early 1900s, photo taken as Private in patrol jacket with 2 Year GCB and musket skills badge above, then photo taken as Sergeant with pre-1907 shoulder title , 

Was made RQMS in the 6Ds before leaving prior to being a civvy in 1911.* Then re-joins a different unit TBC for the Great War, based in Windsor the whole time, re-joining at RQMS level.

2) As above, but leaves 6Ds prior to 1911 as a Sergeant, he then re-joins the 6Ds with ERE, and was then made RQMS at some point during the Great War, updating his inscription in the above souvenir at the time.

 

6 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Sounds possible. His recorded RQMS appointment would have been a truly meteroric example if only his 1900-ish to sometime before 1911 (being a civilian on the 1911 Census) was considered.  That said,, from an Infantry perspective I'd say "there's nowt stranger than Cavalry" ........ so anything's possible. 

 

So for 1) to work, to go from Private to RQMS between circa 1900ish and at some point before 1911 he would have to have had a meteoric rise? If that's too fast (even for Cav), then I'm willing to lean on 2) being the option as how he bolstered his experience to qualify for that appointment. i.e. He got RQMS during the Great War, possibly in the 6Ds.

 

6 hours ago, TullochArd said:

 

If I m reading LLT correctly we have London Command's Combermere Barracks, Windsor (Cavalry) and Victoria Barracks, Windsor (Infantry) around this time.  That's about it.  On the "Parade" photo the three storey Barrack Block with open verandah proves a sadly common feature of period military architecture. 

 

Herbert Berry's Wife (and maybe Herbert as well) was living on Queen's Road, at the time:

 

Which is nestled very neatly between Victoria and Combermere Barracks looking at Google.

 

Based on what you say TullochArd, then it's likely Combermere if he was still Cav.

 

I'm not sure where to go next, as it's proving impossible to find him anywhere, just a big black hole for him in the records. Not even in the 1901 census, which would make sense if he's in SA, but he's not on the QSA medal roll for the 6Ds either... gah.

 

If he stayed at Windsor for all of the Great War, would he be entitled to any medals? As he didn't serve in a Theatre. That would at least explain why I can't find a suitable H or Herbert Berry at the rank of Sergeant or above in the MIC.

 

They had a daughter in 1920, and Herbert's occupation on the birth certificate is back as 'Postal Porter'. Again, forgive my ignorance, but would that indicate that he didn't take an Army pension after the war, as he was in employment? That would explain why I can't find a pension record either. He would have only been 34 at the end of the war, so still had a lot of years ahead of him.

 

Thought I'd also share that we still have this lovely 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons pin/badge/brooch. Not sure if this has a known date/period attached to its issue: