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Remembered Today:

meaning of 'vice'


tamiwell

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This probably sounds like a stupid question but I'm a little confused about the meaning of 'vice' used in service records.  For example, one of my soldiers was made Sergeant 'vice sergeant ***' who was shot in the leg at Gallipoli.  Does this have some sort of meaning like 'in place of'?  Another was promoted 'vice' a sergeant in the field in France....

Tam

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Taking on the responsibilities without actually being a sergeant is how I read it 

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Each unit- usually measured at battalion level- had an establishment of posts in peacetime. Promotion was thus often "dead men's shoes" (whether they were actually dead or not!!) In wartime it was much the same though losses through attrition and postings to other units made the promotions administratively much easier.

   Your man being promoted "vice" suggests he may have been a pre-war Regular, or enlisted on Regular terms during the war- and thus his promotion was to the fixed "establishment" of his unit., regardless of whether the war ended.

   If you can, then post your man's name and my colleagues much more skilled than I should be able to flesh this matter out more.

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Thank you, my man was an ex Policeman and he was assigned the 3rd AIB HQS.  He worked on Gallipoli as a Military Policeman.  His friend who was shot (and who he was made Sergeant possibly in place of (??)) was also an ex Policeman he knew from the time they were working at Broken Hill.  They enlisted together, Charles McIvor was number 9 and Hector Uphill was number 8!  

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  That makes sense- Military Police would likely be on a fixed establishment  for promotions purposes. My grandfather, a Petty Officer RN was arrested onshore at Galliopli-briefly-being of dark complexion, he was mistaken for a Turkish spy. I do hope it wasn't your ancestor or his chum being too zealous!!  Pip,pip:P

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Oh that's a bit funny!! : ) Charles wasn't my ancestor sadly but I've grown quite fond of him!  I'd be very proud if he was!  I'm part of a research team putting together some biographies on men who took up a block of land under the soldier settlement scheme after the war.  Charles has been a great one, he was a Policeman in Glasgow, then Broken Hill after immigration.  He was a leader in the community later in life too....so maybe a 'zealous' sort haha!! : )

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2 hours ago, tamiwell said:

This probably sounds like a stupid question but I'm a little confused about the meaning of 'vice' used in service records.  For example, one of my soldiers was made Sergeant 'vice sergeant ***' who was shot in the leg at Gallipoli.  Does this have some sort of meaning like 'in place of'?  Another was promoted 'vice' a sergeant in the field in France....

Tam


Vice in that context was/is a common term in military administration and you’re quite right that it’s literal meaning is “in place of”.

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It's Latin.

Commonly used in English but has a range of meanings.

Think vice-captain, vice-president.

 

Google Translate gives this multitude of possibilities, although in the context of Great War service records, it is taken to mean 'in place of' or 'instead of' :

Adverb
 
in turn
vicissim, vicem, invicem, in vicem, deinceps, vice
 
 
 
alternately
alternatim, alternis, vicissim, per vices, vicem, vice
 
 
 
by turns
per vices, alternis, vicissim, in vicem, vicem, vice
 
 
 
mutually
mutuo, invicem, inter, vicissim, adinvicem, vice
 
 
 
reciprocally
vicissim, invicem, mutuo, vice, citro, vicissatim
 
 
 
Preposition
like
pro, prod, ad modum, in modum, vicem, vice
 
 
 
by turns of
vicem, vice, in vicem, invicem
 
 
 
on account of
propter, ob, ex, per, de, vice
 
 
 
after the manner of
vice, vicem
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You sometimes see notices in the London Gazette that a particular civil servant has been appointed or promoted "in the room of" another civil servant. This rather quaint phrase has the same meaning as "vice", and they both refer to an appointment or promotion to replace its former holder. It would be a substantive appointment, not a temporary or local one, but it implies belonging to a unit with a fixed establishment.

 

Ron

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Yes I agree that it relates to established positions and was much used by officialdom.  It commonly appears in lists of court appointees, general officers, lords lieutenant, viceroys, etc.  My simple explanation was purely for the benefit of tamiwell and in the context that she sought, not wishing to go down into the weeds.

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Interesting thread! Vice surely comes from Latin vicarius (I'd posit a connection with vicus, a small village or administrative unit - presumably in the sense of a discrete place or location - but my Latin isn't good enough for confidence); in English it's cognate with vicarious and vicar (someone who is in the place/role of God). Although surely in the Army that particular honour was reserved for SNCOs.

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4 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Interesting thread! Vice surely comes from Latin vicarius (I'd posit a connection with vicus, a small village or administrative unit - presumably in the sense of a discrete place or location - but my Latin isn't good enough for confidence); in English it's cognate with vicarious and vicar (someone who is in the place/role of God). Although surely in the Army that particular honour was reserved for SNCOs.

I don't think a vicar was ever seen as being in place of God.  The origin of the term is when the holder of a living appointed somebody else to fulfil the duties associated with the living.  That person would then be the vicar as opposed to the holder of a living who personally fulfilled those duties who would be a rector.  The terms are still in use today but are largely meaningless simply reflecting the past arrangements in the parish.   

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3 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

I don't think a vicar was ever seen as being in place of God.  The origin of the term is when the holder of a living appointed somebody else to fulfil the duties associated with the living.  That person would then be the vicar as opposed to the holder of a living who personally fulfilled those duties who would be a rector.  The terms are still in use today but are largely meaningless simply reflecting the past arrangements in the parish.   


That’s very interesting and makes sense of the ecclesiastical terms you mentioned and ‘awards of livings’ that I’d not really understood before now.  Thank you for posting.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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That is interesting indeed, Bordercollie - never realised the implications of rector/vicar. I think I really meant the representative of God but either way thanks, I appreciate the correction.

 

Cheers, Pat

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3 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

I don't think a vicar was ever seen as being in place of God.  The origin of the term is when the holder of a living appointed somebody else to fulfil the duties associated with the living.  That person would then be the vicar as opposed to the holder of a living who personally fulfilled those duties who would be a rector.  The terms are still in use today but are largely meaningless simply reflecting the past arrangements in the parish.   

I may be wrong in this since it is a very long time since it was explained to me and I have no idea who told me. In the19th century a rector held a living a would receive the tythes. he could (of course) pay someone else to do the actual work (see Dr Vesey Stanhope in Barchester Towers (I think) who had been living in Italy for twelve years).  In the case of a vicar the tythes were received by the patron of the living.

TM

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Yes the patron was the person who had the right to nominate to the bishop a clergyman to be installed as rector of a parish.  In the middle ages the patron would have been the lord of the manor but the right could be traded or donated.  A lord of the manor grateful for safe return from a crusade might donate his right to a monastery.  The abbot would then be likely to retain the post of rector himself, together with the entitlement to receive tythes, and appoint a vicar to carry out the duties in the parish.  The vicar would be paid a stipend by the rector but it would be rather less than the tythe income.     

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