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Help identifying regiment for officers frock coat


damianb
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Hi, can anyone please help with identifying the associated regiment for this frock coat. I recently brought it off a friend who brought in some uniforms from the UK. Believe it’s WW1 or interwar but may be older. It has no buttons on the epaulets & stitching where it once had rank pips. I’d like to be able to hunt the correct buttons so any help appreciated

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It’s a frock coat of Foot Guards (all regiments) but missing all its netted ‘olivettes’ (toggle type buttons).  You would need to contact the Guards tailors in London to obtain replacement netted olivettes and two netted buttons for the shoulder straps.

 

NB.  It is the same garment as was worn by Prince Harry for his wedding.

 

 

 

B&W Image courtesy of BritishEmpire.co.U.K.

 

 

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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If I remeber rightly frock coats continued (continue?) to be used by officers who held certain appointments much later than by any other officers.

RM

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8 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

If I remeber rightly frock coats continued (continue?) to be used by officers who held certain appointments much later than by any other officers.

RM


Yes, Guards Adjutants, various Guards ‘Sticks in Waiting’ and members of the Royal Family associated with Guards Regiments, all have use of such garments.  Once worn by many regiments and corps they are now exclusive to Horse and Foot Guards.  They are technically ‘undress’ garments, but are so elegantly tailored that in today’s sartorial climate they appear flamboyant.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Just now, FROGSMILE said:


Yes, Guards Adjutants, various Guards ‘Sticks in Waiting’ and members of the Royal Family associated with Guards Regiments, all have use of such garments.  Once worn by many regiments and corps they are now exclusive to Horse and Foot Guards.

I was a bit hestitant about it. Does that mean they are still in use?

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1 minute ago, rolt968 said:

I was a bit hestitant about it. Does that mean they are still in use?


Yes, by the personages mentioned.  You might recall Prince Harry chose to wear one at his wedding, as did his older brother to complement him.

 

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1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:


Yes, by the personages mentioned.  You might recall Prince Harry chose to wear one at his wedding, as did his older brother to complement him.

 

7997580B-0D0F-4F6E-8ABD-4DE823057143.jpeg

Thank you!

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14 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 You would need to contact the Guards tailors in London to obtain replacement netted olivettes and two netted buttons for the shoulder straps.

My gut tells me that this is an expensive proposition, am I wrong?

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9 minutes ago, JOVE23 said:

My gut tells me that this is an expensive proposition, am I wrong?


Compared with ordinary buttons yes.

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Once again, Frogsmile is a mine of information! :thumbsup:

Is the grey colour of any significance?

Did the dangling bits have any use originally?

 

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Further to the information above re. Frock Coats, I undertook some research recently into their use by bandmasters, before and after the Great War. It might be of interest.

 

The dark-blue, knee-length, double-breasted, ‘Frock-Coat, Universal pattern’, was worn by officers of most regiments and corps of the British Army before 1914 when in ‘No. 5 Dress - Undress Order’ (the exceptions being the officers of the Household Cavalry and Foot Guards, who had their own patterns of Frock-Coat; and officers of Rifle regiments, Scottish Highland regiments, and The West India Regiment, for whom the Frock-Coat was not prescribed). However, the ‘Frock-Coat, Universal pattern’ was also worn by the Bandmaster in each battalion of English, Welsh, Irish and Lowland Scottish line-infantry, light-infantry, and Fusiliers. ‘Bandmaster’ was a title of appointment for band N.C.O.s suitably qualified to assume leadership of a battalion band, with immediate promotion to the rank of ‘Warrant Officer’.

 

As an ‘Undress’ item, although permitted to be worn by an officer when on or off duty (and always with the peaked ‘Forage Cap’) the ‘Frock-Coat’ was not worn when parading with troops: on these occasions, an officer would wear the dress worn by the men, which after 1902 was limited to either the scarlet ‘Full Dress’ (worn in ‘No. 1 Dress – Review Order’) or khaki ‘Service Dress’ (worn in ‘No. 2 Dress – Marching Order’ and ‘No. 3 Dress – Drill Order’). The one exception to this rule was the Bandmaster. When conducting outdoors, if the band was in ‘Full Dress’, and therefore wearing the ‘Full Dress’ head-dress, the Bandmaster would be dressed likewise. If the band were playing in ‘Service Dress’, with ‘Service Dress Cap’, he would also be similarly dressed. However, battalion bands often performed indoors, or from bandstands, and when in ‘Full Dress’ on these occasions, bandsmen were authorised to wear their ‘Undress’ peaked ‘Forage Caps’, a combination usually only permitted for ‘Other Ranks’ when off-duty and ‘Walking-Out’. As the combination of ‘Full Dress’ and peaked ‘Forage Cap’ was non-regulation for battalion officers and Bandmasters, the only option for the Bandmaster on these occasions was to parade with the band wearing the ‘Frock-Coat’ and ‘Forage Cap’.

 

With the outbreak of the Great War in 1914, ‘Full Dress’ was withdrawn, and not re-introduced after, except for the ‘Household Cavalry’, ‘Foot Guards’, and army bands. The ‘Frock-Coat, Universal pattern’ too was not worn during the Great War, and was afterwards only re-introduced for officers of the rank of Colonel and above, and for ‘Directors of Music’ (the title for the leaders of large corps ‘Staff’ bands, who had been commissioned as officers) and Bandmasters. Thus, by this quirk of their bands still wearing ‘Full Dress’, during the 1920s and 1930s the only individual within English, Welsh, Irish and Lowland Scottish line-infantry, light-infantry, and Fusilier battalions who still wore the ‘Frock-Coat’ was the Bandmaster.

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That’s a very interesting rundown of the background to an undress garment exclusive to commissioned officers and warranted bandmasters that goes back a long way.  I enclose an image showing the non Guards pattern, adopted in 1904, that you have described.  The white cover for forage caps was adopted at the same time and worn during the official Summer months.  Both were worn up until the outbreak of WW1.

 

Image courtesy of the Anne S K Browne online collection.

 

 

8CB23178-BA75-46D4-B634-6265F26A2301.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Here is Hurbert Gough wearing wearing his frock coat of the 16th Lancers for anyone interested in the Guards pattern. The collar is no where near as ornate in appearance.

LtGenHubert_de_la_Poer_Gough.jpg

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