Help identifying regiment for officers frock coat

[damianb]

Hi, can anyone please help with identifying the associated regiment for this frock coat. I recently brought it off a friend who brought in some uniforms from the UK. Believe it’s WW1 or interwar but may be older. It has no buttons on the epaulets & stitching where it once had rank pips. I’d like to be able to hunt the correct buttons so any help appreciated

[FROGSMILE]

It’s a frock coat of Foot Guards (all regiments) but missing all its netted ‘olivettes’ (toggle type buttons).  You would need to contact the Guards tailors in London to obtain replacement netted olivettes and two netted buttons for the shoulder straps.

 

NB.  It is the same garment as was worn by Prince Harry for his wedding.

 

 

 

B&W Image courtesy of BritishEmpire.co.U.K.

 

 

Edited 27 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

If I remeber rightly frock coats continued (continue?) to be used by officers who held certain appointments much later than by any other officers.

RM

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

If I remeber rightly frock coats continued (continue?) to be used by officers who held certain appointments much later than by any other officers.

RM

Yes, Guards Adjutants, various Guards ‘Sticks in Waiting’ and members of the Royal Family associated with Guards Regiments, all have use of such garments.  Once worn by many regiments and corps they are now exclusive to Horse and Foot Guards.  They are technically ‘undress’ garments, but are so elegantly tailored that in today’s sartorial climate they appear flamboyant.

Edited 27 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, Guards Adjutants, various Guards ‘Sticks in Waiting’ and members of the Royal Family associated with Guards Regiments, all have use of such garments.  Once worn by many regiments and corps they are now exclusive to Horse and Foot Guards.

I was a bit hestitant about it. Does that mean they are still in use?

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, rolt968 said:

I was a bit hestitant about it. Does that mean they are still in use?

Yes, by the personages mentioned.  You might recall Prince Harry chose to wear one at his wedding, as did his older brother to complement him.

 

[rolt968]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, by the personages mentioned.  You might recall Prince Harry chose to wear one at his wedding, as did his older brother to complement him.

 

Thank you!

[damianb]

Thank you Frogsmile. I’ll hunt down some netted olivettes & buttons & some trousers to match :)

[JOVE23]

14 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 You would need to contact the Guards tailors in London to obtain replacement netted olivettes and two netted buttons for the shoulder straps.

My gut tells me that this is an expensive proposition, am I wrong?

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, JOVE23 said:

My gut tells me that this is an expensive proposition, am I wrong?

Compared with ordinary buttons yes.

[PhilB]

Once again, Frogsmile is a mine of information! 

Is the grey colour of any significance?

Did the dangling bits have any use originally?

 

[cmf]

Further to the information above re. Frock Coats, I undertook some research recently into their use by bandmasters, before and after the Great War. It might be of interest.

 

The dark-blue, knee-length, double-breasted, ‘Frock-Coat, Universal pattern’, was worn by officers of most regiments and corps of the British Army before 1914 when in ‘No. 5 Dress - Undress Order’ (the exceptions being the officers of the Household Cavalry and Foot Guards, who had their own patterns of Frock-Coat; and officers of Rifle regiments, Scottish Highland regiments, and The West India Regiment, for whom the Frock-Coat was not prescribed). However, the ‘Frock-Coat, Universal pattern’ was also worn by the Bandmaster in each battalion of English, Welsh, Irish and Lowland Scottish line-infantry, light-infantry, and Fusiliers. ‘Bandmaster’ was a title of appointment for band N.C.O.s suitably qualified to assume leadership of a battalion band, with immediate promotion to the rank of ‘Warrant Officer’.

 

As an ‘Undress’ item, although permitted to be worn by an officer when on or off duty (and always with the peaked ‘Forage Cap’) the ‘Frock-Coat’ was not worn when parading with troops: on these occasions, an officer would wear the dress worn by the men, which after 1902 was limited to either the scarlet ‘Full Dress’ (worn in ‘No. 1 Dress – Review Order’) or khaki ‘Service Dress’ (worn in ‘No. 2 Dress – Marching Order’ and ‘No. 3 Dress – Drill Order’). The one exception to this rule was the Bandmaster. When conducting outdoors, if the band was in ‘Full Dress’, and therefore wearing the ‘Full Dress’ head-dress, the Bandmaster would be dressed likewise. If the band were playing in ‘Service Dress’, with ‘Service Dress Cap’, he would also be similarly dressed. However, battalion bands often performed indoors, or from bandstands, and when in ‘Full Dress’ on these occasions, bandsmen were authorised to wear their ‘Undress’ peaked ‘Forage Caps’, a combination usually only permitted for ‘Other Ranks’ when off-duty and ‘Walking-Out’. As the combination of ‘Full Dress’ and peaked ‘Forage Cap’ was non-regulation for battalion officers and Bandmasters, the only option for the Bandmaster on these occasions was to parade with the band wearing the ‘Frock-Coat’ and ‘Forage Cap’.

 

With the outbreak of the Great War in 1914, ‘Full Dress’ was withdrawn, and not re-introduced after, except for the ‘Household Cavalry’, ‘Foot Guards’, and army bands. The ‘Frock-Coat, Universal pattern’ too was not worn during the Great War, and was afterwards only re-introduced for officers of the rank of Colonel and above, and for ‘Directors of Music’ (the title for the leaders of large corps ‘Staff’ bands, who had been commissioned as officers) and Bandmasters. Thus, by this quirk of their bands still wearing ‘Full Dress’, during the 1920s and 1930s the only individual within English, Welsh, Irish and Lowland Scottish line-infantry, light-infantry, and Fusilier battalions who still wore the ‘Frock-Coat’ was the Bandmaster.

[FROGSMILE]

That’s a very interesting rundown of the background to an undress garment exclusive to commissioned officers and warranted bandmasters that goes back a long way.  I enclose an image showing the non Guards pattern, adopted in 1904, that you have described.  The white cover for forage caps was adopted at the same time and worn (optionally) during the official Summer months.  Both were worn up until the outbreak of WW1.

 

Image courtesy of the Anne S K Browne online collection.

 

 

Edited 6 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilipCooper]

Here is Hurbert Gough wearing wearing his frock coat of the 16th Lancers for anyone interested in the Guards pattern. The collar is no where near as ornate in appearance.

[Nxzy]

On 29/11/2020 at 00:55, FROGSMILE said:

That’s a very interesting rundown of the background to an undress garment exclusive to commissioned officers and warranted bandmasters that goes back a long way.  I enclose an image showing the non Guards pattern, adopted in 1904, that you have described.  The white cover for forage caps was adopted at the same time and worn (optionally) during the official Summer months.  Both were worn up until the outbreak of WW1.

 

Image courtesy of the Anne S K Browne online collection.

 

 

I am facing some difficulties on finding information about Royal Artillery undress frock coat. The only case I could see is "Duchess Of Cornwall Visits The king's Troop Royal Artillery" in getty images, in which case RA frock was worn with peaked cap and "Victorian style" artillery full dress waistbelt (rather rare in modern days) were worn. 

Now I am participating in an auction of an RA frock with King's crown (WW1 ribbons attached) but left with nearly nothing but the resource mentioned above. Where could I find either pictures or drawings to reflect the correct manner of wearing such a frock? Could a side cap match with this if defined as "undress"? Whether a waistbelt is necessary for this or it could be replaced by a crimson sash despite being non-infantry unit in this case?

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Nxzy said:

I am facing some difficulties on finding information about Royal Artillery undress frock coat. The only case I could see is "Duchess Of Cornwall Visits The king's Troop Royal Artillery" in getty images, in which case RA frock was worn with peaked cap and "Victorian style" artillery full dress waistbelt (rather rare in modern days) were worn. 

Now I am participating in an auction of an RA frock with King's crown (WW1 ribbons attached) but left with nearly nothing but the resource mentioned above. Where could I find either pictures or drawings to reflect the correct manner of wearing such a frock? Could a side cap match with this if defined as "undress"? Whether a waistbelt is necessary for this or it could be replaced by a crimson sash despite being non-infantry unit in this case?

1.  The frock coat was worn with peaked regimental forage cap only**, which was routinely fitted with a white cover in the summer months.

2.  The crimson silk officers sash was not worn by RA officers with the frock coat, who instead wore a gilt bullion waist belt with snake type clasp, both of regimental pattern, and a sword ‘carriage’ fitted (two slings, one short and one long).  Prior to 1902, the white waistbelt and carriage plus a pouch belt was worn with the earlier, regimental pattern of frock coat.

NB.  The above applied to RGA bandmasters (and RGA/RFA officers) only - the RHA (‘mounted band’) were dressed differently and the RFA had in addition to the waistbelt a pouch belt for full dress.

**it had previously been worn with the RAs pillbox type forage cap, other than by ‘officers on the staff’ and the bandmaster.

Afternote: I can understand why you have felt confused, there were many changes in 1902.  As an example the pouch belt has been abandoned and then readopted more than once.  It thus depends on the exact period that you wish to depict.

 

Edited 11 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[cmf]

Hi Nxzy,

Further to Frogsmile, here are some extra bits and pieces.

As per the 1904 and 1911 dress regulations, officers of the Royal Artillery (that is, officers of the R.H.A., R.F.A. and R.G.A.) wore the universal pattern frock coat, described as follows, when in ‘Undress’, together with full-dress trousers (blue cloth, scarlet stripes, 1¾ inches wide down the side seams):

Blue cloth, double breasted, with stand-up collar; plain sleeves with two small buttons and button holes at the bottom; two rows of regimental buttons down the front, six in each row at equal distances, the distance between the rows 8 inches at the top and 4½ inches at the bottom, these measurements are not to be exceeded; flaps behind 10 inches deep, one button on each flap and one on each side of the waist; the skirt to reach to the knees and to be lined ; shoulder-straps of cloth the same material as the garment attached by an under-piece passed through a loop on the lower part of the shoulder, fastened at the top by a small button which passes through both under-piece and shoulder-strap; the top of the strap is triangular, the sides being about 1½ inches long, and the bottom ¼ inch from the centre point.

Collar badges, regimental pattern, as for tunic. Badges of rank, gold embroidered, regulation size, on shoulder-straps.

The collar badge worn on the 'Frock Coat' by officers of the R.A. was that as worn on the full-dress jacket (by the R.H.A.) or tunic (R.F.A. or R.G.A.), but the grenade was of gold embroidery instead of silver. Buttons on the ‘Frock Coat’ for all officers of the R.A. were gilt or gilding metal, domed, with the device of a gun and crown. With ‘Undress’, all officers of the R.A. wore a gold lace belt (described as a ‘girdle’ for the R.H.A., R.F.A, and mounted officers of the R.G.A.; and a ‘sword belt’ for dismounted officers of the R.G.A.), 1½ inches wide, lined with blue morocco leather, fastened with gilt snake hook inscribed Ubique, joining two oval gilt plates, each bearing the Royal Crest. Sword slings (gold lace, lined with blue morocco leather, 1-inch wide, with gilt lion-head buckles) were worn only when the sword was carried (‘when on duty, and as the occasion may require when not on duty’).

As Frogsmile says, the only headdress worn with the ‘Frock Coat’ was the universal pattern forage cap, which for the R.A. was blue cloth with scarlet band an welts. Officers of Field rank wore a row of oakleaf embroidery on the lower edge of the peak, other officers having none.

Wellington boots were worn with the 'Frock Coat', and with spurs by the R.H.A. and R.F.A. Being classed as a ‘dismounted’ service, officers of the R.G.A. did not wear spurs unless their rank, or duties, required them to be mounted.

Oh, and not forgetting the white doeskin or buckskin gloves, worn by officers of the R.A. with the ‘Frock Coat’.

Chris

The following photograph, of Captain, later Major, Charles Pulley, R.F.A. is from https://www.bedfordschool.org.uk/remembrance-one-soldiers-story2/major-charles-pulley/ . Major Pulley was wounded in action, at Ypres in 1915, later dying from his wounds.

Edited 11 July , 2022 by cmf

[FROGSMILE]

The “sword belt” mentioned and worn by dismounted RGA officers was whitened buff leather, as were the two slings (carriage) for the sword.

Edited 11 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[cmf]

The last mention, in dress regulations, of the white, buff leather, undress sword belt for dismounted officers of the R.G.A. is 1900, along with the white, buff leather, undress slings worn by all officers of the R.F.A. and R.G.A.

Campbell, in ‘The Dress of the Royal Artillery’, states at p62, on the subject of officers’ sword belts, that “In 1864 undress belts were to be worn over the tunic and frock coat. In 1890 the white belt was changed from patent leather to buff leather. In 1902, these undress belts were abolished and the full dress one was worn both for full dress and undress.”

Edited 11 July , 2022 by cmf

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, cmf said:

The last mention, in dress regulations, of the white, buff leather, undress sword belt for dismounted officers of the R.G.A. is 1900, along with the white, buff leather, undress slings worn by all officers of the R.F.A. and R.G.A.

Campbell, in ‘The Dress of the Royal Artillery’, states at p62, on the subject of officers’ sword belts, that “In 1864 undress belts were to be worn over the tunic and frock coat. In 1890 the white belt was changed from patent leather to buff leather. In 1902, these undress belts were abolished and the full dress one was worn both for full dress and undress.”

Yes that’s correct, so hence my initial post, that I deliberately kept brief for the OP, as I judged that he probably wouldn’t benefit from great detail given his relatively simple request (you can see that I posted an image from Campbell’s book).

My comment clarifying the “sword belts” construction was merely in response to your mention of it.  As this is a WW1 forum I assumed that the inquirer wanted to know the dress details as they would have applied in 1914, rather than pre-1902.

Edited 11 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[cmf]

Well, I'm sure the OP has plenty to be going on with for now! 

 

[Nxzy]

Quite a sufficient amount of information obtained. I am new to this forum and I could certainly say I was warmly welcomed. Thank you all!