Imperial German Bayonet’s from my Collection

[Steve1871]

Blade was not sharpened 

[AndyBsk]

Thanks for information, for this are only 2 scenarios, it was not in service in 1914, as it should went per mobilisation sharpening and was hidden anywhere in depot, or it was already saled out to civilian market as obsolete prior 1914. 

[Steve1871]

Many German bayonets with war time unit markings, including Ersatz units called up in 1914 WERE NOT SHARPENED, not just many of mine, but many other members on the forum who have posted their bayonets

[AndyBsk]

there are exact manuals about mobilisation sharpening, as this bayonet was already made there should be done sharpening when used in service in summer 1914. About various ASG bayonets and war time period pieces i dont known, but my S98, S98/05 are all mobilisation or war sharpened, when blunt edge so postwar removed sharpness. Please read Rudiger.

When looking to Yours S71/84 presented here in last threads there could be Nr.24 sharpened? same as nr25 which would be a mobilisation sharpening, the nr.26_28 are untouched blades so mostly depot pieces or already out of service. No any of the units are war period, and all these units had already in 1914 in equipment only Gew98 system as plain Infantry of first line.

All of the presended bayonets S71/84 are in very nice condition and are valuable , even when not all used heavily i WW1 probably.

 

Edited 8 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

23 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Please read Rudiger.

 

 

Where in Rudiger Andy?

[trajan]

On 02/04/2021 at 20:27, AndyBsk said:

Maybe yes but maybe not, personally i dont believe bayonets were similar way switched , this was a numbered complete with rifle, rifle was added in waffenmeister book to specific soldier and signed , when something lost, then soldier should pay for lost, so the soldier known what bayonet, scabbard and rifle should have. 

 

On 03/04/2021 at 03:27, Steve1871 said:

Yes but in War, always in the Field, maintaince, cleaning as a group, new gear, belts and clothing, packs, soldiers would be changing things around.  There would be a much greater chance of  2 scabbards being swapped by accident, maybe a soldier broke his , grab a spare from the weapons/ equipment scavenged from the fallen after a battle. No one would ever know, but for post war, commercial market, bayonets packed by the crate, no one would care to try and match up a scabbard to the original unit as bayonet. About the same chance as willing a £1 million lottery ticket

 

I did wonder if the waffenmeister of a unit did keep such a register, but sure enough, there is an amendment to DVE 185 issued 1912 that states armourers will henceforth keep a weapons list which included serial numbers and ranks of the bearers. I only have the English translation to hand, and this talks of firearms, not bayonets, but I will see if I have the German version somewhere.

 

Whatever, Steve is right in the sense that slip-ups will happen in war time. Note also that it was only in the 3R period - specifically from 21st February 1940 - that bayonet serials were entered into a man's Soldbuch. 

 

Julian

[AndyBsk]

That is already in Rudiger part original reprint of army manuals and stamping manuals, what to do when is mobilisation ordered. I believe it was in his older book, that covered longer period, as his later books divided in shorter periods. When i have time, i will look where it is. But there are enough period pictures of early war days with grinding of blades of bayonets.

Personally believe that evidence was allways present and mainly in german army, the S84/98 of 3R period were serialed since earlier datum, and i believe i have seen prewar period soldbuch with similar serialing of weapons. Anyway there was arms book by waffenmeister as it was in CSSR army in 1989 when i served.

As mentioned before the use of S71/84 by first linie Regiments as 39R was is highly unreal in 1914, by Landsturm or Landwehr certainly possible, or other guarding units, anyway the old stamp would be removed.

In front of area where Rudiger present the army manual of stamping of 1877 there are details of various service Vorschrift,one of it under nr.13 is Scharfschleifen von klingen beim mobilmachungsfall from1880.

Edited 5 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Andy, You state by 1914. These units already had Gew.98.  With 98/05.   The extreme  shortage of Gew.98. And 98/05 led to the 88 rifle being used. Besides ersatz, the 71/84 bayonet, and yes the S.98  quillback were used. Till the 98 rifle and 98/05 could be produced enough to replace.

 

On the sharpening, closer look on my 71/84’s so far,  #’s  24,  (25,26, thin sharpening line right at edge), 27, and that exelent #28, if you enlarge, see 2 define the spots, thin, about 5 cm from top and little larger spot about same distance from cross guard. A sharpened blade looses it’s edge over time, even more so if it was not a deep sharpening . Great War is over a century old mow

 

I do not know where any of these units served. In early war, due to equipment shortages and other units being held in reserve to prepare for new offensives. 

There are many period photo’s ( not studio) showing Great War photos of 71/84, as well as earlier bayonets and ersatz. The whole deal of ersatz and S.71 family, including 71/84

were only beginning of war to think first 2 months of 1916 when all the early/ersatz stuff were withdrawn  on line, look up “ DrakeGoodman”. He has posted massive amounts of photos from Great War. Including the 71/84.

 

 If you want confusion in marking/ issue of weapons. Calling up as many units as possible at beginning of war, with shortages of rifles and bayonets. Moving regiments around creating new units, many were issued the Gew.88 in the beginning. As you say, a company’s armorer would stamp and record rifle and bayonet. There were a number of S.98 , but far too few ( add ersatz) but most ersatz were NOT unit marked. Also S.71 and S71/84 bayonets. As war moved on in time, same units were re-issued newer equipment, Gew.98 / 98/05, these too, by what you say were matched unit numbers.   That also means, many thousands of early (Gew.88) and later Gew.98 matching sets must have been produced??   
 

to just make up a number 5.R.3.212

there was a 88 rifle with 71/84 or S98

and a Gew98 with 98/05 or other newer bayonet BOTH having the same 5.R.3.212

 

rearming to the Gew.98 was I think over a million rifles, yet I never heard of even 2 different types of bayonets, say S.98 and 98/05 with identical unit numbers

 

[AndyBsk]

Steve how many did You see bayonets with war period stamps? from this made some conclusion is hard as it remains only promile of the ammount of real produced, certainly normally old unit numbers should be removed, piece in depot , reserve are not stamped, same as by war time period assigning and changing of units in short period were unit stamping vorbidden mainly in front line areas, not by training backside area units. There are clear manuals since 1880 prior to 1914 what to do by mobilisation. There are too many bayonets of S71, S71/84 that were saled out prior 1914 to civilian market, this was confirmed. So the unit of the S71/84 were stamped in 1888-90 most real, not in WW1 as the units are equiped already with Gew98 system, Since 1905 were S71/84 moved mainly to Reserve units, and Landsturm, this is not the case of marking, thats all.

The presented collection of german bayonets is amazing, a lot of collector would have similar pieces as are in Your collection.

Edited 8 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #29

4/9/21. Friday

Soemmerda  Mfg

Spine has crown over an “L”  or “F?” Over 89

71/84.       B.2.R.R.2.207

Think Bavarian 2nd Reserve Regiment, 2nd company, weapon 207

sorry, do not know how make script letters on my phone

 

I like this set, Bayonet/ scabbard for the markings.

The Scabbard has a unit stitched out, a partially marked unit on top, right side up for a Prussian, or at least non Bavarian?Maybe Wurttemberg? And a Bavarian unit that I do not understand??? 
B.1.R.J..4.22

Bavarian first Reserve. .... But J is next, Jaeger units were in Battalions, not regiments

I will let the experts help out on this!🙏

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyBsk]

Nice units, the bavarian used masivelly S71/84 still in WW1 in contrary to Prussia, this one could be of that period :

i assume bayonet is Bavarian .Reserve Infanterie Regiment nr.2, Rekruten Depot, 2.Company, weapon nr.207, which was training unit for forming soldiers to the front.

"02.08.1914 ^[1] : Das Reserve-Regiment wurde gemäß Mobilmachungsplan mobilisiert. Neben dem ins Feld rückende Regiment wurde ein Ersatz-Bataillon und ein Rekruten-Depot aufgestellt." All similar Rekruten Depots units are stamm basement units located in Germany area.

About the scabbard is evidently the old outdoted number is of Bavarian Infantry Regt.nr.3, Rekruten Depot, the new one could be Reserve Jaeger Battalion.nr1,  4.Company , weapon nr. 22  there were 2 reserve jaeger Battalions mobilised in 1914? 

L/89 is normal for Print Regent Luitpold of Bayern.

Edited 10 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Andy, I did not think Jaeger Battalions had Reserve Battalions. That does not sound right? Can you double check on that

 

on that hatched out unit. Wurttemberg or Prussian, ( right side up)  B  (8 or 9?) RR

that is clearly OVERSTAMPED on top of the deleted original number, yet the letters, BRR are still deeply struck, yet the number is half way hatched out.  8/9?

 

can see half of a 2 in that old hatching

[AndyBsk]

When i something wrote here so its confirmed.

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/KB_RJäg.B_1

About outdoted serial i dont see there nothing more as B .3 or 8 R.R. 22? so its Bayern Infantry Regiment nr.3 or 8 , You should look with magnyfying glass, anyway RR means Rekruten Depot of Infant. Regiment, and weapon nr. Many time are bavarian units marked on scabbard not same direction as on bayonet, this is not extra rarity. I believe the S proof on mouth piece speaks too for Bavaria.

Edited 10 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet # 30

4/15/21. Thursday 

Saw Back

 

71/84mS.  Bavarian B.9.R.E.2.170

9th Bavarian Ersatz/reserve Regiment, 2nd Company. Weapon #170

 

Soemmerda Maker

Spine is Crown over L. And 90 date. almost all  Bavarian Saw backs I have seen, and in books and on line has these markings on the Ricasso, not the spine. Nearly all are dated 91

 

I am guessing the scabbard is non matching. I do not know, the original frog is on too tight. I would have to tear the frog off just to see if matching. The scabbard is in very good shape. A bit faded, but no dents, seam and both staples are intact. Frog in very good shape as well

 

Blade in very good shape. No rust or patina.

Grips show some wear, and semi dark

Cross guard in good shape, no rust or patina

 

With my Camera phone, if some photo’s look a bit “ off”. It is the compression, simply enlarge the pic. And it will sharpen up

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyBsk]

Bavarian 9.Infant.Regiment,Ersatz Battalion,Company nr.2 and weapon nr.170 Sawbacked version of S71/84 are always interesting.

Frog looks like used for dress purpose for a time, the rivets are not typical.

Edited 16 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet # 31

4/23/21. Friday

71/84mS. Saw Back.     B.2.R.E.1.88.

maker.  Soemmerda

Reverse is L  91, the most common for saw backs

 Bavarian 2nd Ersatz Regiment, 1st Company, weapon no. 88

With scabbard. Scabbard has small dents, not nothing major, no creases/folds, seam and staples intact

Some mild pitting, looks like it was cleaned many years ago, Grips are very nice for their age. Still a light color, must have spent most of it’s 132 years in people’s collections. Scabbard does not match, still a nice saw back, hope you gents will enjoy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve1871]

If some photo’s look out of focus, try enlarging them

[Steve1871]

To be honest here. I just had a talk (PM) with another forum member. He pointed out that this piece must have had heavy rust at one time. The Ricasso on both sides, showing maker and date show most of the old pitting, and where join the guard. The beginning of fuller has grinding marks, but only for about 20 mm or so, the rest of fuller looks good, but edge part of blade also has some deep pitting. Many old bayonets that have pitting, the Ricasso area where moisture can be trapped is the usual place of most damage 

 

We collectors always want to see the best in our pieces, I am now thinking good and bad on this one. Bad in that it was more extensive rust, pitting than I wanted to think. Someone, maybe in last few, to 20/30 years ago, who knows, did a lot of work in cleaning, but it still shows.......The Good, it is still a real Bavarian 

71/84mS. Saw back, one of the rarest and most expensive bayonets to collect. 

[Steve1871]

AndyBsk correctly pointed out to me, there were no Ersatz Regiments. The unit would be 

 

Bavarian 2nd Regiment, Ersatz Battalion, 1st company, weapon no. 88

Thank’s Andy

 

On Ersatz units. Battalions, I do not know if a Regiment can have more than one? If yes, would a number be added after the “R” for regiment for the 2nd or 3td ersatz?

 

Would you know there Andy?

[GreyC]

On 25/04/2021 at 02:57, Steve1871 said:

I do not know if a Regiment can have more than one?

I am not Andy, but: yes. How this is then spelled out on a weapon I leave to Andy to answer ;-)

GreyC

 

[AndyBsk]

II.Ersatz Battalion of  Infanterie Regiment nr.99. in war were raised various ersatz Battalions, by Austrian it could be that even XXIII Marsch Battalion of the basement unit were raised in 1914-18 period, started with I. MB in august 1914 and continued into late 1918. As there were lost, killed or wounded soldier that should be replaced by the unit. The obvious numbering of Battalions were with roman numerals.

In war they were various units, even Ersatz Divisions by Bavaria, some replacement units builded a special units, that were used to stop enemy attacks or problems on front areas, even not ended in their own units, its depend on area of combat and situation.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Ersatz_Division

Edited 24 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Thanks Gray C. And Andy!😁

 

to make up an example 

100.R. E.1.22  = 100th Regiment. Ersatz battalion 1st company, weapon 22

 

if it had 2 ersatz units

100.R.2.E..1.22. Hope I got that right

 

 

[Steve1871]

When members correct me on unit designations, That does not bother me. You are helping, by teaching me. I guess I am a slow learner, was already told before, that Ersatz units were Bsttalions, not regiments, I forgot that 

 

[AndyBsk]

I should look to manual,anyway similar units are of war period and the Ersatz equipment remained still there near rekrutendepots and stamm location,by moving to front,they got system98 weapons,and older S71/84 remained by Ersatz unit probably or training units.

[GreyC]

13 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

was already told before, that Ersatz units were Bsttalions, not regiments, I forgot that 

Well,

there were Garde-Ersatz Regiment 1 and 2, Ersatz-Regimenter 23,24, 28, 29, 32, 40, 51,52, Reserve-Ersatz-Infanterie-Regiment 1-4 and Landwehr-Ersatz-Regimenter  1-9 from Prussia, Baden, Württemberg and Saxony and Ersatz-Regimenter 1-5 from Bavaria. Some were renamed during the war.

GreyC