Further information great uncle

[Dave Nott]

Thanks for having me on board.

im seeking further info on my great uncle, Joseph Nott. 7016

Northumberland Fusiliers.

Private.

born in Tynemouth, lived in North Shields.

ive done some research.

born in 1896

joined fusiliers in 1914

19th service battalion.

Also did service with 12/13

Wounded by gun shot to left thigh and buttock about July 1916.

put on ambulance train No.26

Re-joined the war, then killed in action March 2018

Has a plaque at Pozieries cemetery.

Any further help appreciated.

Dave Nott

 

[corisande]

Welcome to the forum Dave

 

You seem to have done a lot of work already

 

Soldiers Effects (which you can get on Ancestry) shows there was some doubt as to his exact date of death

 

 

You need to look at the War Diary for the battalion to see what they were doing at that time. Other Ranks are rarely mentioned by name, but you can get an idea of the actions and the casualties

 

There are free downloads of War Diaries from the Nat Archives - you just register for free and download

[RaySearching]

On the 21st March 18, the 12/13 Bn were in trenches near Heude Court when the enemy launched the German Spring Offensive

The battalion after an initial enemy bombardment were overwhelmed by superior forces the battalion fighting a rearguard 

action to Bray  On the 26th March  the Bn dug in at Bray  the following day a further withdrawal was made the Bn defended the village of Ribemont 

until relieved on March 29th 

 

Joseph pressumed to have been killed in action during the retreat sometime between the 21st and the 28th 

his body lost to the battlefield

 

Ray

 

[charlie962]

There are red cross enquiry form transcripts on FindmyPast showing he was reported missing in March 1918. A useful extra bit of info is that it says he was with 'A' company.

[charlie962]

The Medal Roll on Ancestry gives the sequence of Battalions that he served with in BEF:

10th NF

27th NF

24th/27th NF

14th NF

12th/13th NF

[clk]

Hi Dave,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

His medal roll records (link) show his overseas service as follows - first arriving overseas on 25.8.1915.

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

His Soldiers Died record says that he enlisted in North Shields. According to the war diary of the 10th Bn (link - free to download after registration) the 25.8.1915 is when the Battalion disembarked at Boulogne. Presuming that he initially joined up and served with the 10th Bn, rather than being transferred to it for overseas service, then you can approximate when his 7016 service number would appear to date from. For example there are papers for a couple of near-ish 10th Bn men which show:

 

7018 O'Connell - enlisted 28.8.1914

7053 Mordue - enlisted 10.9.1914

 

FMP have a image of the hospital ledger that FWR have transcribed (link). At the time 34 CCS was based at/near Vecquemont. There is some information about the general evacuation chain here. The war diary for 26 Ambulance Train may show you where he was evacuated to, though not the institution.

 

For the time of his presumed death the war diary for the 12/13 Bn is here.

 

With Battalion war diaries, it's often worth looking at higher level diaries - ie for the Brigade HQ, and the Division HQ (General Staff) as they often contain 'extras' (such as orders, maps, and reports on operations) that add context to the lower level diary. The National Archives search page is here. If there are any map references, there is help on how to read them here.

 

In the absence of his service file I think that the main problem that you'll be left with in trying to map his service, is establishing precisely when and why Joseph was transferred between Battalions.

 

Good luck with your research.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 November , 2020 by clk
Spelling

[charlie962]

12 minutes ago, clk said:

In the absence of his service file I think that the main problem that you'll be left with in trying to map his service, is establishing precisely when and why Joseph was transferred between Battalions.

 

Some thoughts:

 

It seems he landed in France Aug 1915 with the 10th Bn so he must have joined them in UK..

 

It was not unusual after recovery wounding to be posted to another Bn. I suspect this was when he posted to the 27th NF ie Aug Sep 1916 or perhaps after a spell in UK recovering .

 

If you look at the Long Long Trail here you will see that the 27th Bn merged with 24th to becme 24th/27th on 10/8/17 and was then disbanded in France on 26th Feb 1918.

 

Presumably at this point he was transferred to the 14th Bn  which was a Pioneer Bn ? That doesn't seem to have lasted long.

 

Then subsequently ?? he was posted to the 12th/13th Bn and 'A' Company.

 

War Diaries for those last three units may clarify when transfers of groups of men happened ? There may also be a surviving service record of another man with similar trfs from 27th to 24/27th to 14th then 12th/13th. A bit of digging required.

 

Charlie

 

 

[clk]

Thanks Charlie.

 

That's what I was thinking too. It would be nice though to find some things to firm it up.

 

KR

Chris

[charlie962]

Trawling through the BWM VM Medal Roll for someone else with similar trfs may yield results but a quick look at several pages before and after did not show anything !

 

I wonder when his LCpl promotion occurred and if this may have coincided with a final transfer ?

[Dave Nott]

Thank you all so much for providing some great information to add to what I already know, just brilliant.

[Toontraveller]

My Great Great Grandfather went through a similar posting from the 24 th Northumberland  Fusiliers (1st Tyneside Irish) to the 24/27th ( (1st/3Rd  Tyneside Irish) NF when the two Battalions were amalgamated on the 10th August 1917.
 

I have checked the dates in the 24/7 NF War Diary and the 14th NF  ( Pioneers) War diary’s 21st Division and it’s noted that as part of the reorganisation of the British Army In early February 1918 the 24/27 NF were disbanded and the soldiers posted to different Regiments.

 

The 24/27 NF sent a draft of men 7 Officers and 150 other ranks to the 14th Battalion NF on the 6th February  1918.

 

The War Diary for the 14th NF Noted the arrival of 7 Officers and 135 !  Other ranks on that date.

 

On the 12th February 1918 the 14th War Diary notes 95 OR posted to / from  12/13 NF and a draft of 95  other ranks from 24/27 NF to the 12/13 NF.

 

Hope this helps narrow down the time frame for you. 

 

 

 

[Toontraveller]

Apologies in my post It should have meant  it was 24/27 NF   And they were the 1st/4th Tyneside Irish not the 3rd  Tyneside Irish ! 

[charlie962]

On 18/11/2020 at 13:27, Toontraveller said:

On the 12th February 1918 the 14th War Diary notes 95 OR posted to / from  12/13 NF and a draft of 95  other ranks from 24/27 NF to the 12/13 NF.

Very useful info and it would seem probable that Nott falls into these two transactions, ie into 14th on 6/2 then out on 12/2 although the reason is not clear. may be connected to his rank or just that the initial trf to 14th was done in haste and a further resorting done a week later ?

 

charlie

[Toontraveller]

Charlie, good afternoon.  I agree, it is  difficult to say why without the documents to clarify the  decisions on the movements of troops . I must admit I have not tried to track down any additional War Diary's . 

 

However the LLT notes they were all part of the  21st Division, the 12/13th NF were part of 62nd Brigade  and the 14th NF (Pioneers) as Divisional Troops. It was part of the reorganisation of the Army at that time in February 1918 so possibly the 21st Division just needed to reset the imbalance in some Battalions?.

[charlie962]

4 minutes ago, Toontraveller said:

so possibly the 21st Division just needed to reset the imbalance in some Battalions?.

agreed

[sadbrewer]

From The Shields Daily News, 16th June 1919.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive