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Remembered Today:

Gallipoli casualty - 7th North Staffords


james drury

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Hi all 

 

Just wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of 'C Advance Depot' 

 

I have a relative who died of wounds in the Gallipoli campaign, his service record no longer exists but have been able to find bits and pieces to string a story together.  

 

He died on either the 2nd  or 5th of January 1916 from wounds, place given as Murdos. 

 

I  managed to find a newspaper cutting form the 9th September which lists him as wounded  - no date given but am looking into that now but presumably late August early September.

 

I also found an article for the 23rd December  - he is at the bottom of it - giving thanks for tobacco  from 'C Advance Depot'  on the 3rd December. 

I'm just wondering where C Advance Depot was located.

 

Any tips very much appreciated. Thank again for all the help. 

 

 

Screenshot 2020-11-16 at 22.43.12 copy.png

Screenshot 2020-11-16 at 22.37.45 copy.png

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1 hour ago, james drury said:

He died on either the 2nd  or 5th of January 1916 from wounds, place given as Murdos. 

Presuming this is looking into Edward Charles HIGGOTT 14859

Firstly - the place is likely to be Mudros, the big island off Gallipoli - typically used for troop embarkation and for treatment of evacuated wounded.

Perhaps the date range you provide are for his subsequently fatal wounding [?? - but perhaps there could be different woundings, as you have suggested also in September 1915 - but they need not necessarily be linked ??] and his later death.

He has a pension record card at WFA/Fold3 Wounds rec. in action Died: 5.1.1916 [which is same as MIC & CWGC]

Widow: Daisy Higgott, b.23.8.94

Children Phyllis Doreen, b.16.2.13, and Robert Cyril, b 3.4.14, at 9 Cross St., Burton on Trent  18/6pw from 17.7.16 but is 'Noted for Novel' so may perhaps have been subject to further calculation

Sorry, that doesn't help with 'C Advance Depot' - but I do like sharing the personal details as they can be so very useful.

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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jd

 

I see refs to Advance Depots on the islands Imbros/Mudros and maybe also nearby Tenedos used too. Google "advance depots Imbros 1915" and there is an interesting article. I can't see that there would be such a depot at Gallipoli due to hostile factors !

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Hi, 

 

Yes that's the chap, 

Many thanks for sharing, I have the copy of the pension so very useful. :-)

 

I did wonder about it being a second wound with one one noted in early September seeming a little distant from the death but you never know with complications and the seriousness of the wound.... though if he is thanking people for tobacco in early December it might suggest he wasn't too bad.

 

I thought locating  C depot might help with his  location in early December. 

 

Many thanks for the info :-) much appreciated. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, james drury said:

point me in the direction of 'C Advance Depot' 

 

The closest which I can get to the wording which you quote is “C Advanced Base Depot

as used here by this chap writing to someone in Birmingham

[https://www.badseysociety.uk/sladden-archive/letters/ces19151021]

 

There is a list of medical facilities on Lemnos here, but nothing matches the wording used

https://throughtheselines.com.au/research/lemnos-island#google-map

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1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

 

 

 

The closest which I can get to the wording which you quote is “C Advanced Base Depot

as used here by this chap writing to someone in Birmingham

[https://www.badseysociety.uk/sladden-archive/letters/ces19151021]

 

There is a list of medical facilities on Lemnos here, but nothing matches the wording used

https://throughtheselines.com.au/research/lemnos-island#google-map

 

 

Thank you. 

 

What I have so far is:

 

He 'died of wounds' on the 5th January 1916

 

An article dated 9th September 1915 noting Higgott wounded  (date of wound not given)  - so must have been late august early September. 

An article that notes him at 'C Advance Depot' at Mudros on the 3rd December  - my assumption, him being evacuated post being wounded to Hospital at Mudros then to convelesce  at the Depot. 

 

The 7 Staffords were evacuated from Sulva on the 19th December  - my assumption being that he would not have re-joined them prior to this 

They were on Imbros  until the  23rd December then   moved to the Divisional Camp at Mudros. 

 

I speculate 2 things could then happen

 

Higgott re-joined the  Staffords at Mudros,  then sailed with them to Helles on the 28th December. He was then wounded as the Staffords were in the firing line the first few days in January and died of wounds on the 5th. The war diary does not note any deaths or wounded until the 7th January with 94 casualties.

 

The other possibility is that following the wound (how serious not known)  in late August/early September he was moved to Hospital on Mudros, then to the Depot to convalesce. He remained there through December (article noting him  being at the Depot on the 3rd December) 

He did  not rejoin the Staffords other arrival at Mudros nor move with them to Helles on the 28th December but remained at Murdos.

He takes a turn for the worse or has complications and dies on the 5th January 1916.

 

His soldiers effects states the place of death as `Mudros'  

 

There are others form the 7  N Staffords  on the effects lists who died in early  January and their place of death are  noted as 'Gallipoli', 'Malta', 'Murdos' and specific hospital ships. - it seems that the effects register is pretty specific in listing the place of death so am assuming he died at Mudros. 

 

 

Any way I will keep digging - thanks for all the assistance :-)

 

If so then that questions why he is buried at Lancaster Landing Cemetery. Unless he was buried on Mudros first and then moved to the cemetery at a later date. 

 

The Staffords evacuated Helles on the 8th January.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, james drury said:

If so then that questions why he is buried at Lancaster Landing Cemetery. Unless he was buried on Mudros first and then moved to the cemetery at a later date. 

 

 

This is really quite strange.

There are CWGC cemeteries on Lemnos at East Mudros, West Mudros and at Portianos, and there would have been no reason to move a body from there.

[Bodies were moved to Lancashire Landing CWGC Cemetery from other island (Imbros and Tenedos) but not as far as I know, from Lemnos]

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There is another 7th North Staffordshire man also buried at Lancashire Landing

PRIVATE F. J PERKIN, Service Number: 5652, 7th North Staffordshire Regiment, Died 05 January 1916, also buried in Row J

 

This is looking the more likely option

1 hour ago, james drury said:

Higgott re-joined the  Staffords at Mudros,  then sailed with them to Helles on the 28th December. He was then wounded as the Staffords were in the firing line the first few days in January and died of wounds on the 5th.

 

Edited by michaeldr
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Yes I noticed that bodies had been moved there from other islands but as you say not from Lemnos. 

I had a look at the Effects Roll for Perkin  - it lists him as D of W but gives no location. 

His pension card states Died of wounds received in action. 

 

So doesn't really help too much sadly. 

42511_6129999_0188-00087.jpg

Perkin, F John (5652).jpg

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15 minutes ago, james drury said:

Died of wounds received in action

PC = Exactly the same as Higgott!

Certainly seems likely to be pretty much the same time and place for death - and also for pension card scripting!

:-) M

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9 minutes ago, james drury said:

Yes - almost identical - just the 'Mudros' place of death on Higgotts that throws the spanner in. 

Yes, Mudros does!

But it's not on Higgott's PC.

Where did that come from again? - Soldier's Effects I think you said.

It is a puzzle isn't it?

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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On 17/11/2020 at 17:38, Matlock1418 said:

Yes, Mudros does!

But it's not on Higgott's PC.

Where did that come from again? - Soldier's Effects I think you said.

It is a puzzle isn't it?

:-) M

yes from his soldiers effects 

42511_6117462_0047-00067 copy.jpg

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I did some digging in to those listed in the newspaper report with him wounded on the 9th September. A few service records survive - a few bits in papers. 

Can almost certainly say that they were all casualties for around the 6/7/8 august which helps give Higgott's wound a rough date. 

 

That throws another question - several of them were invalided back to the UK so presumably their wounds were severe enough necessitate that which questions was Higgott's so severe  as he was not. 

We know he was at the C Advance Depot at Mudros on the 3rd December and then died of wounds on the 1st January 1916 - at Mudros but was buried at Lancashire landing.  - presumably he was evacuated to hospital on Mudros and then the depot to convalesce.

 

After leaving Sulva on the 19th December The Staffords were on Mudros form the 24-27th then landed back at Helles on the 28th December 1915 and record no casualties until the 7th with 34 killed and 56 wounded or missing. 

 

I'll keep digging around ....  :-)

 

 

 

Screenshot 2020-11-18 at 19.00.31.png

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14 hours ago, james drury said:

died of wounds on the 1st January 1916 - at Mudros but was buried at Lancashire landing. 

 

Allied forces occupied Lemnos early in 1915, and from then on throughout the war. In October 1918 it was where the cease fire with Turkey was negotiated. The cemeteries on Lemnos were open for all that time and there would be no reason to move a corpse back and forth between the island and the peninsula. This must have been particularly true during the last days just before the final evacuation of Helles: they would have been much too busy with other things.

I can offer no explanation for the "Mudros" notation, however, I do not believe that (wherever it came from) it indicates that he died on the island.  

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I agree, doesn’t really make sense. 
 

My thought  is he was wounded in august and send there and remained recovering untill December.

I think and am prob wrong, he rejoined the Stafford’s when the arrived at Mudros in late December and then sailed with them to Helles where he was wounded and died. 
 

I guess if he was on Mudros recovering until rejoining and leaving late in December then it would be an easy error to make if he died of wounds on Helles in early January after only just leaving Mudros having been wounded. 
 

all speculation ... 

 

many thanks for all the advice though very useful 

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54 minutes ago, james drury said:

My thought  is he was wounded in august and send there and remained recovering untill December.

 

It may not be possible to rule that out, however, I feel almost certain that any wound taking so long to recover would have been referred on to Egypt, to Malta or to the UK.

Medical facilities on Lemnos were certainly better/more extensive than those on the peninsula,

but nevertheless they were still quite limited and the bed-space valuable.

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Hi James

 

Again it is speculation, but since the 7th NS left Cape Helles on the night of the 8th/9th Jan 1916 for Mudros (and Imbros), could it be that the effect's statement is reporting Mudros, because that is where his death was written up rather than where it occurred? A theory could be that he was one of the 56 wounded, later succumbing to his wounds at the RAP, buried, death reported from Mudros.

 

However, looking on CWGC there is a S Gruffogg died 9th Jan 1916. Effects statement says 'of wounds during transit from Gallipoli to Mudros'. Same mystery as to how he lands up in Lancashire Landing.  Equally there is a Harold Maurice Stanley, died 12th Jan 1916, effects statement says 'Mudros', yet buried Lancashire Landing, In both cases no concentration report.

 

My only other theory is that a small cemetery was established near Mudros and was concentrated to Lancashire Landing after the War, CWGC has just missed this in their cemetery history and concentration reports.

 

Hope this helps

 

Kind Regards

 

Derek

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Looking at the approx 175 RND burials at Lancashire Landing, as a comparator, it is noteworthy that the great majority were D.O.W, and most of these are clearly marked as casualties from 11th CCS at Helles. None are from Mudros. Very few are deaths in action. There are a few (7) post-Gallipoli (1916-18) deaths on Imbros/Tenedos (but none from Mudros) that are now re-located burials at Lancashire Landing.

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1 hour ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

However, looking on CWGC there is a S Gruffogg died 9th Jan 1916. Effects statement says 'of wounds during transit from Gallipoli to Mudros'. Same mystery as to how he lands up in Lancashire Landing.  Equally there is a Harold Maurice Stanley, died 12th Jan 1916, effects statement says 'Mudros', yet buried Lancashire Landing, In both cases no concentration report.

 

Derek,

 

Stanley is in Row K as is Gruffogg – there is no mystery about the graves in Row K

See - https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/2000103/LANCASHIRE LANDING CEMETERY/

quote:

The 97 graves in Row K and graves 31 to 83 in Row L were brought in after the Armistice from the following Aegean islands cemeteries:- KEPHALOS BRITISH CEMETERY, on the island of Imbros (Imbroz), was 640 metres inland from Kephalos Pier. There were buried in it 84 British, Australian and New Zealand sailors and soldiers, three Greeks, and one German prisoner. KUSU BAY CEMETERY, on the island of Imbros (Imbroz), contained the graves of 45 officers and men (14 of them unidentified) of the monitors Raglan and M28, which were sunk by the German battle cruiser Goeben and cruiser Breslau as they attempted to break out into the Mediterranean from the Black Sea on 20 January 1918 (both the Breslau and the Goeben later struck mines, off Cape Kephalos, which resulted in the Breslau sinking and the Goeben being grounded of Chanak). PANAGHIA CHURCHYARD, on the island of Imbros (Imbroz), contained the graves of one officer and five men from the monitors and four airmen of the 62nd Wing, Royal Air Force. PARASKEVI CEMETERY, near the South-West shore of the island of Tenedos (Bozcaada), contained the graves of four sailors, one soldier and one marine.

 

In very simple terms; after the war graves were brought in from islands which remained Turkish (Imbros & Tenedos) however, they were left in place on the island of Lemnos which belonged to one of the allies, namely Greece.

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1 hour ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

Harold Maurice Stanley, died 12th Jan 1916, effects statement says 'Mudros',

 

This would tend to indicate that no matter on which island the casualty actually died, the effects statement was completed at Mudros on Lemnos

and it may go some way to explaning how it also appears iro Higgott

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well this might answer the question ... its taken some finding .... 

 

many thanks for all your help, suggestions and advice it really is very much appreciated. 

 

 

Screenshot 2020-11-19 at 18.01.51.png

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19 hours ago, michaeldr said:

 

This would tend to indicate that no matter on which island the casualty actually died, the effects statement was completed at Mudros on Lemnos

and it may go some way to explaning how it also appears iro Higgott

Hi

 

Thanks for your clarification and help on this. Much appreciated. 

 

Kind Regards

 

Derek

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