Which Battalion? Rifle Brigade.

[Blackcountryman]

Hello all. 

I have finally found records of my Great Uncle on my Mothers side of the family, but I can not work out which battalion he was with.

 

His details are Leonard Clansey. Born 25 Sept 1895. Hill Top West Bromwich. Rifle Brigade. Enlisted 1 Sept. 1914. Discharged 17 Dec. 1915.

 

Medal role records him as Rifleman 2408. awarded all threee medals. I knew he was injured during the war as my mother recalled as a child watching him rub the pink coloured paper of the  Sporting Argus on his face. His father would soak it so the dye ran, and it gave him some colour.  

 

I see he was awarded the Silver Badge and was discharged from the army on 17 December 1915. 

 

 He died aged 33yrs, His death certificate records 1.Heart failure. 2. Toxemia due to poison gas/ war service.

 

But no where does it record his unit/ battalion. I have searched for his enlistment papers etc with no luck. 

 

Any ideas where I maybe able to access this information please? 

[Alan24]

19 minutes ago, Blackcountryman said:

Hello all. 

I have finally found records of my Great Uncle on my Mothers side of the family, but I can not work out which battalion he was with.

 

His details are Leonard Clansey. Born 25 Sept 1895. Hill Top West Bromwich. Rifle Brigade. Enlisted 1 Sept. 1914. Discharged 17 Dec. 1915.

 

Medal role records him as Rifleman 2408. awarded all threee medals. I knew he was injured during the war as my mother recalled as a child watching him rub the pink coloured paper of the  Sporting Argus on his face. His father would soak it so the dye ran, and it gave him some colour.  

 

I see he was awarded the Silver Badge and was discharged from the army on 17 December 1915. 

 

 He died aged 33yrs, His death certificate records 1.Heart failure. 2. Toxemia due to poison gas/ war service.

 

But no where does it record his unit/ battalion. I have searched for his enlistment papers etc with no luck. 

 

Any ideas where I maybe able to access this information please? 

 

Medal Rolls show he first served in France with 1st Battalion then with 7th Battalion.

 

He may have been wounded and taken off strength of the 1st Battalion then, when fit again, sent to join the 7th Battalion...then went sick (SWB says sickness rather than wounds as reason for discharge) which led to his discharge.

 

Is it CLANSEY or CLANCEY?

 

His number is Z/2408 - the prefix Z indicates a Special Reservist.

Edited 13 November , 2020 by Alan24

[PRC]

His Medal Index Card shows he first landed in France on the 11th January 1915. At that point only the Regular Army Battalions, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th were in France, the last, the 4th arriving on the 21st December 1914. As such he went out as part of a replacement draft and could have gone to anyone of the four.

 

The extract from the associated Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal & British War Medal, (Ancestry only) posted by @Alan24 gives the unit details. The 7th Battalion landed at Boulogne in May 1915 https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-rifle-brigade-1914-1918/

Service with that Battalion is likely to be after then, and following recovery from wounding \ accidental injury or health issue - any of which could have led to him being medically evacuated back to the UK. Unfortunately only if he was wounded will you find him in the Casualty Lists - the best bet for the others will be local newspapers.

 

I see from the transcription of his entry on the Silver War Badge Roll that is available on FindMyPast that he was discharged as no longer physically fit for service as a result of sickness rather than wounds.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Alan24]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

His Medal Index Card shows he first landed in France on the 11th January 1915. At that point only the Regular Army Battalions, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th were in France, the last, the 4th arriving on the 21st December 1914. As such he went out as part of a replacement draft and could have gone to anyone of the four.

 

Peter,

 

Medal Roll above only shows units he served with in a war zone. He was therefore drafted to the 1st Battalion on 11 Jan 1915, the early date being consistent with a reservist and not a volunteer, as you say. HIS AGE IS IMPORTANT HERE...

 

I think his age prevented him going overseas with 1st Btn on 23 Aug - he had not reached 19 years of age at that date. Hence later draft on 11 Jan 1915.

 

He later went to the 7th. I don't think he served with any other battalion overseas - he would have been allocated to a Depot Coy. or Reserve Battalion whilst recovering in the UK up to the point of his discharge back to civilian life. 

 

Regards

 

Alan.

[Mark1959]

A pension card for him gives his disability as “Dilatation and Displacement of Heart”.

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

A pension card for him gives his disability as “Dilatation and Displacement of Heart”.

BCM - Think I've seen your interest in West Bromwich on GWF before.

The pension card also gives an address of 9 Salisbury Road, West Bromwich.

:-) M

[kevinrowlinson]

4 hours ago, Alan24 said:

His number is Z/2408 - the prefix Z indicates a Special Reservist.

 

 and 

 

4 hours ago, Alan24 said:

He was therefore drafted to the 1st Battalion on 11 Jan 1915, the early date being consistent with a reservist and not a volunteer, as you say.

 

Sorry Alan, but personally think this is incorrect. It's one of those things that has a yes and no answer. The Z prefix does indicate someone being posted to a Reserve Battalion, probably 6th, but he would have been a new recruit. His enlistment for 1st Sept 1914 is consistant with this series.

 

Like a lot of things on forum, my research on these prefixes some years ago got mixed reviews from the start. Have a look at below thread which I still stand by.

 

Regards Kevin

 

 

[Alan24]

11 minutes ago, kevinrowlinson said:

Sorry Alan, but personally think this is incorrect. It's one of those things that has a yes and no answer. The Z prefix does indicate someone being posted to a Reserve Battalion, probably 6th, but he would have been a new recruit. His enlistment for 1st Sept 1914 is consistant with this series.

 

Kevin, on consideration and checking 'The Army Numbers Blog' could be a short term recruit...

 

Quote "Z - Rifle Brigade (WW1). Numbers Z/1 to Z/2997 were issued to men enlisting for one year as Special Reservists and men enlisting for three years’ short service"

 

The 1st Sept date was puzzling. so yes, probably the latter, not reservist.

 

It was recently discussed on the forum that volunteers for the short term of engagement had to be 19 to enlist. Those joining as regulars could do so at 18. Clearly he joined at 18 & 11 months, whether he lied about his age or was deemed 'nearly there anyway' we'll never know but he went out (age 19 & 3 months) after only 4 months training, which does seem to be a very short time for a New Army recruit. It did cross my mind that he may have enlisted as a reservist just before the outbreak (say 18 years & 6 months) and either not completed his training or was held back due to age. That was my line of thought anyway!

 

Thanks for highlighting your Prefix thread - very interesting.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

[PRC]

So would an appropriate summary look something like this.

 

Enlisted 1st September 1914¹ as a Special Reservist in the Rifle Brigade and most likely went to either the 5th Battalion at Minster (Sheppey)² or the 6th Battalion at Sheerness², to complete his basic training.

 

Went out to France on the 11th January 1915³. Shortly afterwards he joined up with the 1st Battalion⁴ in the field.

 

At some point in 1915 he was either wounded \ accidentally injured or had health issues that caused him to be medically evacuated away from his unit. (Note I could not readily find him in the Casualty Lists in The Times).

 

8 hours ago, Blackcountryman said:

He died aged 33yrs, His death certificate records 1.Heart failure. 2. Toxemia due to poison gas/ war service.

 

A possible consideration is that the 1st Battalion, Rifle Brigade were part of the 11th Brigade of the 4th Division. The Division was in action in the Battle of Frezenberg from the 8th May 1915, part of the 2nd Battle of Ypres. In the large battle the Germans made considerable use of gas, and did so again at Frezenberg on the 10th, (not sure if it affected the 4th Division – the 1st RB War Diary would be worth checking) and the 12th when it did hit the 4th Division.

 

1st Battalion War Diary at the National Archive for August 1914 to June 1915 here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14016996

 

On recovery he was posted to the 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade⁴. But as a result of health issues (“dilation and displacement of heart”⁵) he is found no longer physically fit to serve and is discharged from the Army on the 17th December 1915¹ with a pension⁵.

 

Sources

1.     Silver War Badge Roll, (as Clansey).

2.     The Long, Long Trail page for The Rifle Brigade https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-rifle-brigade-1914-1918/

3.     Medal Index Card and Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal for date.

4.     Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal for the unit.

5.     Ministry of Pensions Card on Fold3, transcript on Ancestry.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Buffnut453]

The general flow listed above tallies very well with known details of one of my relatives, George Gamble, Z2110, who enlisted in the Rifle Brigade on 2 September 1914.  He went to France on 27 January 1915 where he joined the 4th Battalion.  He'd already been promoted to Lance Corporal prior to his departure for France and was appointed Acting Corporal on the date he embarked for the continent.   

[kevinrowlinson]

12 hours ago, PRC said:

Enlisted 1st September 1914¹ as a Special Reservist in the Rifle Brigade and most likely went to either the 5th Battalion at Minster (Sheppey)² or the 6th Battalion at Sheerness², to complete his basic training.

 

Very unlikely as already mentioned. From the start of the war a 1 year term was introduced for time expired soldiers who were also known as Special Reservists.  These were completely different to the Special Reserve soldiers already enlisted, and who would have been prefixed by 5/*, or 6/*. Given his age it was most likely he enlisted for 3 years as a new recruit. Both the 1 year term Special Reserve soldiers, and the 3 year term soldiers obviously became duration of war anyway. The "Z" prefix just indicates he was sent to a Reserve Battalion. He could easily have been sent to either 7th, 8th or 9th Battalions that were being formed at the same time.

 

Kevin

[Blackcountryman]

Goodness me. Thank you all for the very detailed responses you have kindly forwarded over. I am amazed the knowledge and information you all share and for me it is very much appreciated. I will read again all the details you have sent when I have my next set of days off. I'm working for the next 4 days. But Thank you all.

 

As a point of interest I have attached a couple of pictures of Leonards father John Clancey. If someone is interested in 1st Life Guards I would be more than happy to share what details I have. John enlisted on 1st October 1884. Joined major Lockharts Troop. Service Number 1407. He left on 4 April 1891. 

 

Thank you all again. Steve.  

[PRC]

1 hour ago, kevinrowlinson said:

Given his age it was most likely he enlisted for 3 years as a new recruit. Both the 1 year term Special Reserve soldiers, and the 3 year term soldiers obviously became duration of war anyway. The "Z" prefix just indicates he was sent to a Reserve Battalion. He could easily have been sent to either 7th, 8th or 9th Battalions that were being formed at the same time.

 

Good points, but just one thought. As the 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions were New Army battalions, is it not more likely that to have gone to them he would have signed up as a short service enlistment rather than as a new Regular Army recruit. Given how loathe the Army seemed to have been to mix men on different Terms & Conditions at that stage of the war and on the balance of probabilities, therefore the 5th or 6th would seem more likely.  A draft from one of the Reserve Regular Army Battalions routinely going to one of the B.E.F. Regular Army battalions seems more probable rather than a volunteer from a Kitchener Army battalion going to a Regular Army Battalion in January 1915.

 

I must emphasise that is just based on probabilities and the dates and is therefore speculative, although some legwork might turn up more details about the rest of the draft that went out with him and the T's & C's under which they signed up.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[kevinrowlinson]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Good points, but just one thought. As the 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions were New Army battalions, is it not more likely that to have gone to them he would have signed up as a short service enlistment rather than as a new Regular Army recruit. Given how loathe the Army seemed to have been to mix men on different Terms & Conditions at that stage of the war and on the balance of probabilities, therefore the 5th or 6th would seem more likely.  A draft from one of the Reserve Regular Army Battalions routinely going to one of the B.E.F. Regular Army battalions seems more probable rather than a volunteer from a Kitchener Army battalion going to a Regular Army Battalion in January 1915.

 

No. You seem to be confused. No one has suggested he did or would sign under the pre war regular enlistment terms, but in all likely hood the 3 year term.  I viewed many hundreds (thousands) of mens records to determine what the prefixes indicated. If anyone does not believe these findings then I would suggest they go through the same exercise. Of all the hundreds of men who were turning up at the end of Aug. and the start of Sept., it was just a matter of chance whether one was posted to one of the Reserve Battalions (prefixed by "Z") or one of the new Army Battalions (prefixed by "B") being formed. Please don't take my word for it, go through a few hundred records prefixed by "Z" or "B". 

 

Kevin

[Alan24]

2 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

 it was just a matter of chance whether one was posted to one of the Reserve Battalions (prefixed by "Z") or one of the new Army Battalions (prefixed by "B") being formed.

Kevin, that makes perfect sense now, thanks for clarifying.

 

19 hours ago, PRC said:

Enlisted 1st September 1914¹ as a Special Reservist in the Rifle Brigade and most likely went to either the 5th Battalion at Minster (Sheppey)² or the 6th Battalion at Sheerness², complete his basic training.

Peter, your summary is correct except the paragraph above, which should read...

 

Answered the call for volunteers and joined the Rifle Brigade at Winchester on 1st September 1914, given the number Z/2408 and posted to either the 5th Battalion at Minster (Sheppey)2 or the 6th Battalion at Sheerness2, to complete his basic training.

 

He almost certainly added one month to his age and answered that he was 19.

 

Alan.

[stiletto_33853]

Not so, there are cases of these prefix men that joined K1 battalions from Winchester. I have just been reading the letters of  Z Prefix man that was kept at Winchester after enlistment and then posted to the 8th RB in October 14 and undergoing training with that battalion until he went overseas with them in May 15.

Remember, these men were numbered at Winchester and then sent to wherever, why just the 5th & 6th?? some went to the 14th & 15th Reserve battalions and some remained at Winchester.

 

Andy

Edited 14 November , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[kevinrowlinson]

15 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Not so, there are cases of these prefix men that joined K1 battalions from Winchester. I have just been reading the letters of  Z Prefix man that was kept at Winchester after enlistment and then posted to the 8th RB in October 14 and undergoing training with that battalion until he went overseas with them in May 15.

Remember, these men were numbered at Winchester and then sent to wherever, why just the 5th & 6th?? some went to the 14th & 15th Reserve battalions and some remained at Winchester.

 

Andy

 

Andy,

 

I am sure many did. It does not alter the fact that they were taken on at one of the Reserve Battalions on being numbered and approved. It may even have been the same day, the next day, a few days later or a few weeks that they were posted on. I would suggest that the reason for this was probably on certain days the Reserve Battalion had reached their establishment limit, given the numbers that were turning up at Winchester during Aug. and Sept.

 

Kevin

[stiletto_33853]

I could not agree more Kevin and agree with you regarding the confusion on enlistment terms.

 

The point of my post was that people assume the 5th or the 6th whereas there was also the 14th & 15th where quite a few of the Z Prefix men went, also the Depot at Winchester which by the end of 1914 held 835. The 5th & 6th were the primary Reserve battalions based at Minster and Sheerness on the Isle of Sheppey, which totalled 1,900 for the 5th & 1,788 for the 6th by the end of 1914 in accordance with the A.O. increasing the size of the Reserve battalions, some of whom formed the South Thames Garrison, the rest as training battalions. There was also a camp at Scrapsgate on the isle were men from the 5th & 6th used to be sent just before being sent overseas, groups of 200 I seem to remember.  There was also the 14th & 15th based at Southend-on-Sea at this time, 776 for the 14th & 796 for the 15th, some of whom acted as the North Thames Garrison, with the rest as Training battalions, these were based on what is now a housing estate behind the Kursaal on the seafront, with the officers of the 14th & 15th RB & KRRC being housed in the Westcliff Hotel, 2 miles from the OR's Camp.

 

Unless there is a record for the man being discussed all you can state is that he went to a training battalion, the 5th or 6th that has been mentioned in previous posts is an assumption.

 

Andy

Edited 15 November , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[MBrockway]

Some notes from the regiments that give a strong impression of the situation at Winchester in Aug/Sep 1914.

 

It's clear that men were sent both to the training battalions at Sheerness and direct to the K1 Service battalions. 

 

 

 

Mark

 

[Alan24]

I believe the "lower part of the mobilization stores was converted into a dining hall" is now the Light Infantry Museum. The LIM now being on two floors. The south end of the ground floor is the Rifles Museum which is free to access as it's funded by the Crown.

 

The original dining hall & kitchens were in the lower barracks and was one of the very few 19th century buildings to be demolished in the 1990s, its condition being beyond repair according to the architect. A building of similar size and style was rebuilt in its place  the purpose now being residential of course.