Rolls-Royce Armoured Cars

[Piper42nd]

My friend is building a replica of an RRAC.  What insignia would he wear on his SD jacket and cap?

[FROGSMILE]

Royal Naval Air Service (Royal Naval Armoured Car Division) insignia

including the enclosed as collar badges.  Commander Samson’s unit would be a good one to focus upon.

 

 

Edited 11 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Weren't they transferred to the Army around the end of 1915?  To the Cavalry Motor MG Battery?  If so what insignia would they have worn? 

[michaeldr]

17 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

My friend is building a replica of an RRAC.  What insignia would he wear on his SD jacket and cap?

 

First identify the exact period the friend of Piper is thinking of, surely?

[Piper42nd]

You're right Michaeldr my apologies.  There is documentation that four RRAC were used in an attack on the village of Roisel 26 March 1917.  That's the period I'm interested in.  I believe they were a Light Armoured Battery.  Were they "assigned" to Cavalry or Artillery or something else?  What shoulder titles, cap badges, etc would they have worn? 

[FROGSMILE]

If 1917 most of the Light Armoured Motor Batteries of the MGC(M) were Corps assigned and, along with the MGC (Heavy Branch), had come under the Tank Corps.  It's unclear I think if all units were wearing the Tank Corps insignia that soon after absorption, and I suspect that most men and officers were still dressed as members of the MGC(M).

 

Edited 12 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

In March 1917 the car commanders and the machine-gunners were Machine Gun Corps and the drivers were Army Service Corps.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

In March 1917 the car commanders and the machine-gunners were Machine Gun Corps and the drivers were Army Service Corps.   Pete.

Thank you Pete, that’s what I anticipated.  The ASC had been driving the armoured cars for the original Motor Machine Gun Service too.

[david murdoch]

March 1917 in France the three remaining Rolls Royce units were 7th, 8th and 9th L.A.Bs (Light Armoured Batteries) all belonging to Machine Gun Corps (Motors) and each with 4 Rolls Royce. The unit you are looking for is 9th L.A.B for sure  as they were based at Estrees-Mons  just a few miles from Roisel at the time  The other two  units were back on the coast in winter quarters and training.

In their diary for 25th they had 4 cars doing reconnaissance, 26th and 27th 2 cars in action.  On the 27th they took a casualty Gunner C H F Bernard. who was wounded, but died en route to hospital in Peronne. 28th they were "standing by" and 29th they moved back to Peronne.

As mentioned the personnel are a mix Officers and Gunners  - Machine Gun Corps (Motors) and the drivers Army Service Corps.  MGC cap badges will be plain crossed guns. shoulder titles MGC or MGC (M). All may or may  not  also be wearing. Motor Machine Guns shoulder patches. In some units ASC personnel also wore them.  

To get the cars right need to look closely at the war diary - there were constant modifications done  - those cars had turret extensions, protector plates on the guns, wrecking hooks on the front, tow bars and mud chains on the rear wheels. Both 8th and 9th had  towed 3pdr Hotchkiss guns - though probably not on the day if they were on recce work. The big thing for appearance of the cars is around this time they were fitted with slab Uralite (to counter armoured piercing bullets) and then painted over in vivid camouflage. These are the cars that appear in the photos during Arras the following month. I'd need to check back from these dates to see if they were clad and re painted prior to this (while they were back near the coast). 8th I think they only did this a week or so before Arras. 

Edited 12 November , 2020 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

If 1917 most of the Light Armoured Motor Batteries of the MGC(M) were Corps assigned and, along with the MGC (Heavy Branch), had come under the Tank Corps.

No - Heavy Section of the MGC became The Tank Corps 28 July 1917. But Lt Armd Motor Batteries remained firmly MGC(M) officially (and unofficially ;largely Motor Machine Gun Service) until the end of the war.

 

Regards, Paul

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

No - Heavy Section of the MGC became The Tank Corps 28 July 1917. But Lt Armd Motor Batteries remained firmly MGC(M) officially (and unofficially ;largely Motor Machine Gun Service) until the end of the war.

 

Regards, Paul

Thanks Paul.  I saw a different explanation elsewhere, but I believe that you’re right.

[Piper42nd]

This is great information gentlemen and I thank you.  Has anyone seen clear photos of the crew described above while on or next to their cars? 

[david murdoch]

8 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

This is great information gentlemen and I thank you.  Has anyone seen clear photos of the crew described above while on or next to their cars? 

There are very few photos of armoured cars  in France from this era. The well known ones were taken during battle of Arras in April 1917 these are the closest (well only) ones giving any detail. By this time all cars had been fitted with Uralite and most camouflaged. The photos could be either 8th or 9th L.A.B s as they were basically identical spec units who later merged to become 8th L.A.M.B. Both units had a couple of 3 pounder Hotchkiss and there is mention in the war diaries of Hotchkiss machine gun training  - though I've never seen one fitted in a car. The cars were in an ongoing state of modification over the previous year  - the diaries show they were in a constant trade off between up armouring and weight issues and these cars were right on the limits and really struggling with  the added weight and road conditions. You can see in the photos most but not all of the cars had the turret extensions - diaries show them rotating into  workshops in Calais to be modified  over the winter of 1916. One of the reasons the units were merged into larger 8 car L.A.M.Bs was to have enough cars serviceable at any one time. With a 4 car L.A.B the amount of resources and manpower required to put 2 or 3 machine guns in the field was not viable. There are subtle differences in the cars some had front mudguards removed, the rear view street scene the two nearest cars have Uralite cladding but not camouflaged - there is a third car in front looks to be camouflaged. Personnel in these pictures presumably battery personnel. Likely some of them will be wearing leather gaiters rather than puttees, as there were still a number of motorcycles involved with each battery.

[david murdoch]

12 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

No - Heavy Section of the MGC became The Tank Corps 28 July 1917. But Lt Armd Motor Batteries remained firmly MGC(M) officially (and unofficially ;largely Motor Machine Gun Service) until the end of the war.

 

Regards, Paul

Actually in the war diaries for all three batteries they were using MMGS rubber stamps - both unit and CO's stamps. I'm pretty sure MMGS actually got involved with armoured cars and some unit's formed before MGC took them over. 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Actually in the war diaries for all three batteries they were using MMGS rubber stamps - both unit and CO's stamps. I'm pretty sure MMGS actually got involved with armoured cars and some unit's formed before MGC took them over. 

Interesting information about relatively obscure units during an obscure set of circumstances in 1917 France.  Thank you for posting it David.

Edited 13 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

My thanks as well.

[RNCVR]

Perhaps not of use to you but here is a good RPPC of an RN Rating wearing the Armoured Cars collar badges....

 

Best....

Bryan

[RNCVR]

His cap badge would have looked like this example.....

RNAS cap badges could also be of metal\brass.

[pjwmacro]

14 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Perhaps not of use to you but here is a good RPPC of an RN Rating wearing the Armoured Cars collar badges

Great photo - thank you for sharing. Do you know who he is?

 

Regards, Paul 

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, david murdoch said:

MMGS rubber stamps - both unit and CO's stamps. I'm pretty sure MMGS actually got involved with armoured cars and some unit's formed before MGC took them over. 

Bit like the motorcycle batteries. Great set of photos, thanks as always for sharing,  Paul

[Piper42nd]

I like the photo especially for the collar badges.  I don't know what an RN rating is though. 

[Piper42nd]

I forgot to ask David earlier about the photo with the ASC shoulder titles.  Is that a WW1 jacket and what are the collar badges?   And a really novice question, what is the shoulder cord for?  I've them on photos for years though seemingly only white and only in photos. 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Piper42nd said:

I forgot to ask David earlier about the photo with the ASC shoulder titles.  Is that a WW1 jacket and what are the collar badges?   And a really novice question, what is the shoulder cord for?  I've them on photos for years though seemingly only white and only in photos. 

The collar badges are ASC (the drab service dress jacket is from WW1 and in the online Imperial War Museum collection).  The shoulder cord is a ‘lanyard’ to which the general issue clasp knife was attached and placed in the adjacent chest pocket (officially for all soldiers). 

Edited 13 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Interesting information about relatively obscure units during an obscure set of circumstances in 1917 France.  Thank you for posting it David.

Got an interest as my Grandfather was an NCO with 8th L.A.M.B in Mesopotamia. He served in France prior to this and  I've more recently established he was one of the 8th L.A.B personnel.  The original battery members were all 1915 enlistments into MMGS. The armoured cars from both 8th and 9th L.A.Bs were ex RNAS. These  ended up in Mesopotamia later in 1917 - they can be identified in photos as the turret extensions show they had been on active service and modified in France. It appears the Uralite coatings and wrecking bars ect were removed as not needed and to get the weight back down.

The lad killed with 9th L.A.B on 27th March 1917 was Gunner 1838 Charles Henry Firth Bernard. He was 23 years old, and known as the "Harwich Hero" as he'd been awarded twice for saving lives as a youth. His brother Tom was in the first tanks at Flers and then in the Tank Corps.

Also attached the page from 9th L.A.B war diary for the dates of interest - you can see the MMGS stamp in use.

Edited 13 November , 2020 by david murdoch

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting David, I can see why it’s been such a focus for you.