Cap badge/uniform identification

[VRees]

Hi folks, looking to identify my Great Grandfather's unit/cap badge as I have scant information on him other than this photo at present.

 

Cheers!

[Gunner Hall]

He's a serjeant of the The Queens,  (Royal Wesr Surrey Regiment) 

 

GH

Edited 11 November , 2020 by Gunner Hall
Spelling!

[VRees]

1 minute ago, Gunner Hall said:

He's a serjeant of the The Queens,  (Royal Wesr Surrey Regiment) 

 

GH

Wow! Cheers mate, much appreciated.

[Gunner Hall]

You are more than welome.  I've always loved their regimental nickname "The Mutton Lancers"  due to their distinctive "Lamb and Flag" cap badge.  

Brief details of each battalions Great War service can be found at  https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/queens-royal-west-surrey-regiment/

 

d

[johntaylor]

Looks like a medal ribbon as well - but I'm not sure which one.

 

John

[VRees]

Cheers. I did a little research as it's bedtime here in Australia and he was K.I.A. on December 3, 1916, though I don't know where thus far.

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, VRees said:

Cheers. I did a little research as it's bedtime here in Australia and he was K.I.A. on December 3, 1916, though I don't know where thus far.

He has the look of a regular soldier.  I think that the medal ribbon might be the Queen’s South Africa medal given the vagaries (colour distortion) of orthochromatic film.  The 2nd Battalion Queen’s were recipients of that medal.  He may have continued in service right through between the 2nd Anglo/Boer War and WW1, but it’s much more likely that he was recalled as a regular reservist if my observations turn out to be correct.

 

NB.  The positioning of his medal ribbon also bespeaks an old soldier, as the higher up location was in accordance with the C1900 regulations.  By WW1 this was changed to in line with the top of the pocket, but veterans of the time were oft out-of-date.

 

Edited 11 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[BabaAndrew]

With his name, you should be able to find out if he received the Queen's South Africa medal (or King's South Africa medal). 

 

Another possibility could perhaps be Distinguished Conduct Medal?  Can check WW1 medal entitlements on national archives website, searching online resource on British Army medal cards.

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, Gunner Hall said:

 I've always loved their regimental nickname "The Mutton Lancers"  due to their distinctive "Lamb and Flag" cap badge.  

 

d

 

Also known as Kirke's Lambs; a slightly ironic title, this: in 1685, under their Colonel (Kirke), the regiment was involved in rounding-up fugitive's from Monmouth's army following their defeat at Sedgemoor - a particularly bloody affair. (Followed, of course, by the Bloody Assizes of Judge Jefferies).

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Also known as Kirke's Lambs; a slightly ironic title, this: in 1685, under their Colonel (Kirke), the regiment was involved in rounding-up fugitive's from Monmouth's army following their defeat at Sedgemoor - a particularly bloody affair. (Followed, of course, by the Bloody Assizes of Judge Jefferies).

It’s interesting that the regiment were already using the Lamb insignia (the flag was apparently added later) on their appointments even as early as that date.  There are some variants to the story of the lamb’s adoption if I recall correctly, although the most common rationale relates to it being connected with the family arms of Catherine of Braganza I think.

Edited 11 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

Does seem to be the most common. Weren't they one of the regiments which arrived with Tangier as part of her dowry?

 

I always preferred the rather sorry-looking beast in the photo to the strapping animal used after 1922. I always thought that one looked a bit too full of itself.

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Does seem to be the most common. Weren't they one of the regiments which arrived with Tangier as part of her dowry?

 

I always preferred the rather sorry-looking beast in the photo to the strapping animal used after 1922. I always thought that one looked a bit too full of itself.

Yes, I agree on both counts!

 

There’s quite an interesting explanation of the Lamb’s ‘modification’ somewhere, regarding when and how the flag came to be added, but I can’t recall where I read it.  There might be something on the ‘Queen’s Surrey’s’ website.  Sadly a huge amount of the history was lost via the catastrophic electrical fire in the leased stately house that had been holding the regimental collection(s).

Edited 11 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[sadbrewer]

3 hours ago, VRees said:

Hi folks, looking to identify my Great Grandfather's unit/cap badge as I have scant information on him other than this photo at present.

 

Cheers!

What else do you know about him....name, dob, relatives, place of residence etc...you never know what might turn up.

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, VRees said:

Cheers. I did a little research as it's bedtime here in Australia and he was K.I.A. on December 3, 1916, though I don't know where thus far.

Looking on Commonwealth War Graves  Commission only seeing two Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) deaths for the 3rd December 1916. One of these is a Sergeant Jesse Lloyd service number 50 died aged 43. There is a widow's pension card showing he left a widow Florence and five children. 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/400362/J LLOYD/

He's shown as being 4th Battalion TF but by age and rank likely a pre was regular and would certainly have been of an age to serve in the Boer War.

Edited 11 November , 2020 by david murdoch

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Looking on Commonwealth War Graves  Commission only seeing two Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) deaths for the 3rd December 1916. One of these is a Sergeant Jesse Lloyd service number 50 died aged 43. There is a widow's pension card showing he left a widow Florence and five children. 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/400362/J LLOYD/

He's shown as being 4th Battalion TF but by age and rank likely a pre was regular and would certainly have been of an age to serve in the Boer War.

I reckon you must’ve found the right man David, good work.

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, BabaAndrew said:

With his name, you should be able to find out if he received the Queen's South Africa medal (or King's South Africa medal). 

 

Another possibility could perhaps be Distinguished Conduct Medal?  Can check WW1 medal entitlements on national archives website, searching online resource on British Army medal cards.

 

Thats a really super photo!  Love his moustache!

 

I was thinking DCM also but it could well be a QSA.

 

Thanks for posting...

Bryan

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I reckon you must’ve found the right man David, good work.

Hopefully so - if OP  comes back tomorrow and confirms name.  There is a lot on him on several Ancestry trees and other documents. I suspect the family group photo is his four children from his first marriage with their step mother. His son Frederick born 1894 would be a much better age match for the soldier. The youngest of the three daughters is listed on the pension card as she was born 1902, then four younger children born 1910-1914 from his second marriage. The family tree has correct soldiers died and soldiers effects records. Don't see a medal card for Jesse Lloyd - but possibly he was on home service in a training capacity.

Noting in the photo the soldier has overseas chevrons and also a black button.

 

Edited 11 November , 2020 by david murdoch

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Hopefully so - if OP  comes back tomorrow and confirms name.  There is a lot on him on several Ancestry trees and other documents. I suspect the family group photo is his four children from his first marriage with their step mother. His son Frederick born 1894 would be a much better age match for the soldier. The youngest of the three daughters is listed on the pension card as she was born 1902, then four younger children born 1910-1914 from his second marriage. The family tree has correct soldiers died and soldiers effects records. Don't see a medal card for Jesse Lloyd - but possibly he was on home service in a training capacity.

Noting in the photo the soldier has overseas chevrons and also a black button.

 

 

That’s not the same man.  He’s also wearing the unique Australian pattern service dress.

Edited 11 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[VRees]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Looking on Commonwealth War Graves  Commission only seeing two Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) deaths for the 3rd December 1916. One of these is a Sergeant Jesse Lloyd service number 50 died aged 43. There is a widow's pension card showing he left a widow Florence and five children. 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/400362/J LLOYD/

He's shown as being 4th Battalion TF but by age and rank likely a pre was regular and would certainly have been of an age to serve in the Boer War.

I found the same information though didn't get as far as which battalion he served with nor cause or location of death. Cheers! His son (my grandad) Frederick served with 23 Battalion A.I.F reinforcements as a Private and gassed during the German counter attack at Hamel. He passed away of natural causes in 1977. That is him in that photo and the family are step mother and step sisters. He never saw them again. Received a parcel of scoria strewn farmland in Victoria's south west, which he stuck with while quite a number of his fellow returned serviceman gave up on their land. Also, Jesse was originally a Bolton, but lived with Lloyd family and took on the surname at some stage as it changed during sensus entries.

[VRees]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He has the look of a regular soldier.  I think that the medal ribbon might be the Queen’s South Africa medal given the vagaries (colour distortion) of orthochromatic film.  The 2nd Battalion Queen’s were recipients of that medal.  He may have continued in service right through between the 2nd Anglo/Boer War and WW1, but it’s much more likely that he was recalled as a regular reservist if my observations turn out to be correct.

 

NB.  The positioning of his medal ribbon also bespeaks an old soldier, as the higher up location was in accordance with the C1900 regulations.  By WW1 this was changed to in line with the top of the pocket, but veterans of the time were oft out-of-date.

 

Thanks mate! He would have been in  his 40's I expect. 

[david murdoch]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s not the same man.  He’s also wearing the unique Australian pattern service dress.

 

3 minutes ago, VRees said:

I found the same information though didn't get as far as which battalion he served with nor cause or location of death. Cheers! His son (my grandad) Frederick served with 23 Battalion A.I.F reinforcements as a Private and gassed during the German counter attack at Hamel. He passed away of natural causes in 1977. That is him in that photo and the family are step mother and step sisters. He never saw them again. Received a parcel of scoria strewn farmland in Victoria's south west, which he stuck with while quite a number of his fellow returned serviceman gave up on their land. Also, Jesse was originally a Bolton, but lived with Lloyd family and took on the surname at some stage as it changed during sensus entries.

That confirms my thoughts that the group photo was Frederick  and not his father, and also explains his Australian uniform. 

[VRees]

4 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

 

That confirms my thoughts that the group photo was Frederick  and not his father, and also explains his Australian uniform. 

He went A.W.L while these photos were taken after taking ill on the western front and copped quite a pasting for it as well as being docked months of pay. But then, if you knew you weren't likely to see them again.. 

 

 

[david murdoch]

1 minute ago, VRees said:

Thanks mate! He would have been in  his 40's I expect. 

Yes he was 43 when he died. I don't see a medal card for him, so I think he  probably  only served in UK  - maybe in a training role and hence he died and is buried in UK. See below his widows/dependants pension card. Gives his cause of death. His youngest daughter Rose from his first marriage born in 1902 then his younger children from his second marriage.

[david murdoch]

1 minute ago, VRees said:

He went A.W.L while these photos were taken after taking ill on the western front and copped quite a pasting for it as well as being docked months of pay. But then, if you knew you weren't likely to see them again.. 

 

 

I was  looking for him in the Australian records and actually had just found his file! AWOL  for 20 days in January 1918 while in England. and fined 79 days pay! So almost certainly dates the photo to January 1918 if he took the chance to visit his family. 

[VRees]

2 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

I was  looking for him in the Australian records and actually had just found his file! AWOL  for 20 days in January 1918 while in England. and fined 79 days pay! So almost certainly dates the photo to January 1918 if he took the chance to visit his family. 

That's the one alright,but he took it in stride. 79 days pay would have been a real hammer blow though..my word.

13 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Yes he was 43 when he died. I don't see a medal card for him, so I think he  probably  only served in UK  - maybe in a training role and hence he died and is buried in UK. See below his widows/dependants pension card. Gives his cause of death. His youngest daughter Rose from his first marriage born in 1902 then his younger children from his second marriage.

Cheers mate that fills a few gaps just what I was looking for. I'm new to this kind of thing and had been negotiating through a bunch of websites and dead ends.