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Remembered Today:

Rouen - General Hospital No. 12 - Died of Wounds, 7th Oct 1917


Hillslane

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Hello!

 

I am researching my great grandfather who died of his wounds on the 7th of October 1917. I have found half a piece of paper on FMP that mentions him and I am trying to see if there are any records that exist still about his wounds or what happened. It appears he was wounded at the battle of Broodseinde on the 4th of October in the 5th Dorsets, (Sam Chandler, 24595) and taken to No.12 General Hospital.

 

He died on the 7th and is buried in Rouen extension. This week I have managed to track down and buy back his medal as it was sold on eBay to someone from a house clearance which I am going to surprise my mother with for her birthday next week. Any other information I can find before then to add with it would be great. It has been missing her whole life.

 

Thanks and kindest regards

Katie 

EFF892F2-EAE5-4A04-8162-7F21011B72DF.png

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19 minutes ago, Hillslane said:

I am researching my great grandfather who died of his wounds on the 7th of October 1917. I have found half a piece of paper on FMP that mentions him and I am trying to see if there are any records that exist still about his wounds or what happened. It appears he was wounded at the battle of Broodseinde on the 4th of October in the 5th Dorsets, (Sam Chandler, 24595) and taken to No.12 General Hospital.

 

He died on the 7th and is buried in Rouen extension.

Katie,

Welcome to GWF

You are in luck as there seems to be a battalion War Diary for the 5th Dorsets.  [I've not read it]

It is unlikely to mention your GGF by name but will give you a general idea of what was happening before his death

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352628 

It is currently free to download once you have made a free registration with the National Archives [if you haven't otherways already seen it]

Good luck.

:-) M

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Thank you so much for the information -  I did find it and he is mentioned in the list of wounded on the 4th of October. The half piece of paper looks like a telegraph was sent about him on the 6th. Katie :)

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10 minutes ago, Hillslane said:

Thank you so much for the information -  I did find it and he is mentioned in the list of wounded on the 4th of October. The half piece of paper looks like a telegraph was sent about him on the 6th

OK - glad you have it / something.

Don't know which medal you have but please note from his MIC he got both the British War Medal & Victory Medal Free poor B/W from the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1757353 [also available in better colour from Ancestry - though usually considered a subscription site it can also be found for free if you opt for a free basic account with them]

Medals often got split up for various reason, not least the BWM for its silver scrap value in times of hardship/need in the past.

Pending any other GWG 'pals' turning up with more stuff I thought I'd better try and now give you some more 'added value' if you have not seen from one of the newer sources on the market, so to speak - Courtesy of the Western Front Association / Fold3, with thanks - one of his his pension cards [there is another but it just repeats his widow's details]

1677051722_CHANDLERSam24595.png.5919145dabf2d1be6941fdd9dd8b0f77.png

:-) M

 

P.S. fyo Find My Past have one of their occasional free access until 12 Nov i believe if you register with them https://www.findmypast.co.uk/page/free-access?ds_kid=43700029857769539&ds_rl=1272596&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuO6knKv67AIVWeDtCh2fbgjeEAAYASABEgLnifD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds 

 

Edited by Matlock1418
added further info on MIC access and FMP note
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That’s great! Thank you so much, I haven’t seen that. My grandmother was Hilda May. 

I have the silver war medal, but not the Victory medal or I’m presuming somewhere there was a death penny too so am still on the lookout. I am just thrilled I managed to find one of them. 

:) 

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3 minutes ago, Hillslane said:

I have the silver war medal

That's a real bonus!  :-)

:-) M

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Katie,

If you can tell us what you know so far (names, addresses. occupation etc) and where you have looked already to avoid members repeating your efforts.

His medal roll index card is free to download from Ancestry and shows his entitlement to the BWM and VM indicates he didn't serve abroad prior to 1916 though is likely to have joined some time earlier and then undergone some months of training, I note you have the BWM which is usually the one that disappears due to its silver content.

There is a book called 'Broodseinde 1917' by Paul Kendal which is a great book but may be a bit involved unless your mum is a historian. if you search Broodseinde on the forum you should pick up threads and I think a couple show trench maps. Hopefully  someone will come along who can post a map of the area which it is now possible to overlay onto google earth which should pinpoint exactly where the Dorsets trenches were. you may also be able to obtain a photo of his grave but sadly I cant think of the website that supplies them!

Hope this helps

 

Simon

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14 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Hopefully  someone will come along who can post a map of the area which it is now possible to overlay onto google earth which should pinpoint exactly where the Dorsets trenches were

Katie,

As for maps - I suggest that you might hope that GWF pal "WhiteStarLine" pops up - there are others that might help [but sorry, not me!]

11 minutes ago, mancpal said:

you may also be able to obtain a photo of his grave but sadly I cant think of the website that supplies them!

The War Graves Photographic Project have a photo of his headstone. https://www.twgpp.org/photograph/view/3380956 [sadly I couldn't find on Find A Grave]

:-) M

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Hi

 

Thank you so much for the information, that is really great. I have one photo of him that was in my grandparents things, and now his silver medal obviously.  I have found his grave details and sent for the photo. I was just hoping to find anything on what happened between the 4th of October when he was wounded (and ideally what his wounds were) and his death on the 7th but realise that is unlikely. I have searched Ancestry and FMP and the Forces War Records. It says that he was originally 11140 in the Hampshires (but havent found his enlistment or anything like that), then 24595 in the Dorsets.

I will definitely get the book, thank you. :)

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Soldiers Died Great War (SDGW) has him as previously #11140 Hampshire regiment however this may be an error.

 

For comparison,  #11147 Hampshire was issued 10 Sep 1914.

 

A look at Chandler's war gratuity tells us he was paid £13 10s - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60506/images/42511_6129999_0104-00218?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=ff1638059d60648ffd34af3f488eacab&usePUB=true&_phsrc=syT1041&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=643118

 

A quick check of the war gratuity tells us that
image.png
https://www.wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

 

So, straight away we have a disparity in the length of service that his war gratuity was paid for and the earlier number shown in SDGW. SDGW is normally spot on but without other evidence I would not be confident over that earlier service - the war gratuity indicates a later date of enlistment. Technically, there as situations where some war gratuity service could be forfeited (and hence throw out the calculation) however that is very rare.

 

The key might be in why he ended up in the Dorsets - early on in the war it's not unusual for a man to enlist, be medically discharged quickly, and then successfully re-enlist later. Where the army later realised this then SDGW would usually still show that earlier period (and give an incorrect service period, based on the gratuity).

 

Craig

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I forgot to mention earlier why I spotted this thread. My grandfather was injured at the battle of Broodseinde on the 4th October 1917 whilst with the 22nd Manchesters (7th Mcr Pals). I've researched him fairly broadly but have failed to uncover how he got from a Belgian shell hole to Colchester Military Hospital as the surviving parts of his service record are missing most of the the medical section (very frustrating). Given the number of Australians involved at Broodseinde and the chaos of battle its perfectly possible that both our ancestors were evacuated via their casualty clearance system.

On the subject of previous service the grandad I speak of above was only ever known as serving with the Manchesters however a fellow member uncovered his previous service with the KRRC which lasted a full 28 days before they saw through his ruse and chucked him out as "unlikely to become an efficient soldier''. In the very early days recruitment could afford to be more selective but as the magnitude of the situation unfolded some standards were relaxed.

There is a memorial to the 7th Division on the ridge at Broodseinde. the fields to the rear of it are the battlefieds upon which so many perished. Outside of the sphere of WW1 research the majority would not have heard of Broodseinde as it was part of the battle that was far more commonly known as Passendaele, or the 3rd battle of Ypres. You should be able to obtaian a photo of the memorial and its environs. which look vastly different to the desolation of a century ago. Images of Zonnebeke and Polygon Wood  are also relevant and may give your mum a then and know' perspective

If I think of anything else of a related nature I'll hopefully post in time to include in your mothers surprise.

 

Simon

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Injured at the same time in the same place! I am glad your grandfather got back to England.

It is such a shame that all of the service records are not complete or are missing altogether so their journeys cannot be fully traced but on the other hand, amazing that pieces of information are online at all to find.

That is such interesting information, thank you. I will have a look at the memorial and add it to my collection for the present. :)

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It looks like he joined in the 2nd Garrison (Home Service) Battalion of the Dorsetshire Regiment. He was evidently later posted to an active service Battalion.

 

Men with similar Dorsetshire Regiment numbers were being allotted those numbers on joining this Battalion on 11/09/1916 (being transferred in from other Regiments, which was the case with Chandler).

 

Garrison battalion men tended to be older men - noting that Chandler was 40 years old when he DoW.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

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Thank you Russ, that’s useful to know -

Sam was born on the 17th of November 1883 so somewhere along the line they got his dates wrong as he died a month before his 34th birthday. I sent for his birth and death certificate and they definitely got his age wrong. :)

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Hi there

Here is a link for trench map overlays https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=50.95268&lon=2.83679&layers=101464864&b=1 

This map is dated 3 July 1917, the next map is dated 17 October 1917. Use the slider in the box to alter transparency.

More in-depth detail of German trenches (obviously), but still shows farms, mills etc. on British side.

If you can match these up with war diaries it can bring the story to life.

These maps helped me pinpoint where my great grandad was caught in 1918, so I was able to go there on the centenary.

It also helped me build up his story in time to tell his remaining daughter ,my nan's sister, what happened to him before she passed.

Her reaction was priceless, so treasure the moment.

Hope this helps

Dean

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12 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Katie,

As for maps - I suggest that you might hope that GWF pal "WhiteStarLine" pops up - there are others that might help [but sorry, not me!]

 

I'll take the liberty of pinging @WhiteStarLineand apologize in advance for doing so!

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10 hours ago, Georges Boy said:

Hi there

Here is a link for trench map overlays https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=50.95268&lon=2.83679&layers=101464864&b=1 

This map is dated 3 July 1917, the next map is dated 17 October 1917. Use the slider in the box to alter transparency.

More in-depth detail of German trenches (obviously), but still shows farms, mills etc. on British side.

If you can match these up with war diaries it can bring the story to life.

These maps helped me pinpoint where my great grandad was caught in 1918, so I was able to go there on the centenary.

It also helped me build up his story in time to tell his remaining daughter ,my nan's sister, what happened to him before she passed.

Her reaction was priceless, so treasure the moment.

Hope this helps

Dean

Thank you Dean, that’s wonderful - I really appreciate it. 

10 hours ago, JOVE23 said:

 

I'll take the liberty of pinging @WhiteStarLineand apologize in advance for doing so!

Thank you! 

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Hi Katie, this will show you the general area they covered.  To try it yourself enter the trench map coordinates directly into tMapper.  There is no single trench map that covers the area but you will get the idea of where they were at what time: (assuming I've skimmed the war diary correctly, which is not always the case!

 

1, 04:30 am, A & D company Sheet 28.C.10.c.5.7, Hurst Park, lat 50.891967, lon 2.911800, blue pin

2, 08:00 am, A & D company in Manchester Regiment's old position 50.911831, 2.949173, Sheet 20.V.25.a.3.7 2 green pin (near Malta House)

3, 08:00 A & D company in Manchester Regiment's old position 50.908567, 2.951224, Sheet 20.V.25.c.6.9 other green pin

4, Mon Bulgare (C&B company astride this position, Brigade HQ)  50.900523, 2.927099, Sheet 28.C.5.c.9.8 pink pin W of white pin

5, Battalion HQ, 50.904749, 2.939700, Sheet 28.C.6.a.81.75 Bulow Farm pink pin closest to green pins

6, 08:00 C & B company vicinity of Mon Bulgare, 50.899508, 2.931343, Sheet 28.C.5.d.5.5 white pin

 

Click on the image to enlarge.

image.png.325fbe1265bb4ace15f64190e77364c0.png

 

To try this yourself, open tMapper, click on Bulk Convert, clear the sample and paste in:

28.C.10.c.5.7,Hurst Park
20.V.25.a.3.7,A&D
20.V.25.c.6.9,A&D
28.C.5.c.9.8,Mon Bulgare
28.C.6.a.81.75,Bulow Farm
28.C.5.d.5.5,C&B

 

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Hillslane, completely ignore my suggestion of the book. I managed to combine 2 separate battles and invent a book title. The actual book is Bullecourt 1917 and is about an entirely different battle in France!

Sorry

 

Simon

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5 hours ago, mancpal said:

Hillslane, completely ignore my suggestion of the book. I managed to combine 2 separate battles and invent a book title. The actual book is Bullecourt 1917 and is about an entirely different battle in France!

Sorry

 

Simon

Thank you anyway!

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On 12/11/2020 at 10:56, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi Katie, this will show you the general area they covered.  To try it yourself enter the trench map coordinates directly into tMapper.  There is no single trench map that covers the area but you will get the idea of where they were at what time: (assuming I've skimmed the war diary correctly, which is not always the case!

 

1, 04:30 am, A & D company Sheet 28.C.10.c.5.7, Hurst Park, lat 50.891967, lon 2.911800, blue pin

2, 08:00 am, A & D company in Manchester Regiment's old position 50.911831, 2.949173, Sheet 20.V.25.a.3.7 2 green pin (near Malta House)

3, 08:00 A & D company in Manchester Regiment's old position 50.908567, 2.951224, Sheet 20.V.25.c.6.9 other green pin

4, Mon Bulgare (C&B company astride this position, Brigade HQ)  50.900523, 2.927099, Sheet 28.C.5.c.9.8 pink pin W of white pin

5, Battalion HQ, 50.904749, 2.939700, Sheet 28.C.6.a.81.75 Bulow Farm pink pin closest to green pins

6, 08:00 C & B company vicinity of Mon Bulgare, 50.899508, 2.931343, Sheet 28.C.5.d.5.5 white pin

 

Click on the image to enlarge.

image.png.325fbe1265bb4ace15f64190e77364c0.png

 

To try this yourself, open tMapper, click on Bulk Convert, clear the sample and paste in:

28.C.10.c.5.7,Hurst Park
20.V.25.a.3.7,A&D
20.V.25.c.6.9,A&D
28.C.5.c.9.8,Mon Bulgare
28.C.6.a.81.75,Bulow Farm
28.C.5.d.5.5,C&B

 

Thanks - that’s brilliant and so useful. I really appreciate your help. Katie 

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