Identification

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening hope you are all safe and well.

I would like to ask how many members are actively working on cases to try and identify unknown soldiers killed during ww1, and how successful have they been?

Kind Regards

Andy

[thetrenchrat22]

Andy,  

 

so far, I’ve submitted about 17 cases.  
 

During the current climate, I’ve not submitted any this year.  
 

I’ve had about 3 accepted and 2 rejected,  these were cases submitted in 2017.  
 

with another 2, also submitted in 2017 which has been passed by the CWGC to the NAM for stage 2

 

so it’s looking about a 3 year wait for result to come through, that’s if, it’s passes the CWGC stage 1, NAM stage 2 and finally stage 3 with the JCCC.  
 

I call them stages, as you send the case to the CWGC (Stage 1), then if it passes this stage, then it gets passed to the NAM (Stage 2) and then if the NAM sends it to the JCCC (Stage 3)
 

so, how many cases have you submitted so far and what is your success / failure rate 

 

Alan

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

23 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

I would like to ask how many members are actively working on cases to try and identify unknown soldiers killed during ww1, and how successful have they been?

 

15 hours ago, thetrenchrat22 said:

so it’s looking about a 3 year wait for result to come through, that’s if, it’s passes the CWGC stage 1, NAM stage 2 and finally stage 3 with the JCCC.  

 

My 2nd to last case was approved and finally rededicated after a massive amount of work. Hundreds and hundreds of hours - took years. MoD (JCCC) and CWGC both subsequently issued statements which could only be read as their having spotted the grave and then identified the burial. My last case did not take place in "stages" - but rather "phases" - each "phase" marking an escalation of the degree of "push" which we felt had to be applied to get the case through. Three years is about right for what the submitter may consider to be a "simple and straightforward" case. We are now at "10th Phase" with the last case fully approved and two rededication ceremonies to be arranged post-covid 19. B****y hard work. Frustrating to the nth degree. Blood pressure occasionally through the roof and into lower-earth orbit.

 

"The system" seems to be quite at ease with "in from the cold" rubber-stamp cases, but anything leaning towards heavyweight research or analysis / understanding apparently baffles them, and induces a fall-back position of denial being the easy (escape) route to take.

 

Do it again ? - yes, but my approach, post-submission, would be different.

Tom

[andrew pugh]

1 hour ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

Hi Alan and Tom,

Thank you for replying, 

My story starts with the research my brother and I have done on our Great Uncle, we have researched his service in the British army up to his death on the 24/03/1918 and we are pretty sure we know where he is buried as an unknown. Its has taken over 15 years to get to where we are with our case. We will present our evidence soon. We were given a list of casualties by the C W G C during our enquiries it contained 22 casualties including who we believe is our Great Uncle.

It is safe to say that most if not all these men were killed between the 23rd/24th March 1918 during the German Offensive in the area of the villages of Villers au Flos, Barastre Haplincourt and Fremicourt. One of the casualties an unknown L/Cpl Highland Light Infantry found on the remains Mons Ribbon, MM ribbon an he was a signaller. My research led me to believe he could be Cpl Thomas Houston MM bar 2nd Bn H L I who was killed on the 24/03/1918.I did my homework on this man and presented the case to the Commonwealth War Graves and it went through the 3 stages as you mentioned, and was eventually excepted and a rededication service was held for him in Bancourt British Cemetery about 4 years ago. Just to make you aware he was a Lance Corporal when he was killed but had been promoted to Corporal in the meantime, he probably didn't live to know he had been promoted.

The second case I presented came from the same list. He was listed as an unknown L/Cpl 1/8th Royal Scots, when found he had one wound stripe and he was a signaller. He was buried with 2 other 1/8th Royal Scots, one was named. My research led me to believe he was L/Corporal Brunton Smith of the 8th Battalion once again killed on the 24/03/1918. I presented my evidence to the C W G C and it was nearly refused. I had previously been in contact with the family, explained who I was and what I was trying to do and what the situation was. They were over the moon at what I was trying to do, they had tried in the past but had no luck with their research on their Grandfather. In a conversation I had with the C W G C I mentioned that I had been in contact with the family, they were not very pleased and went on to say that I should not be contacting family members in case it upsets them or gives them false hope. I replied to the C W G C that if you make contact with family there is a right way to address the situation and not give them false hope, which is what I did. Good job I did

As I mentioned earlier the case was nearly refused because There was no proof of him being a signaller or being wounded, that was the problem. Lucky enough I had asked the family did they have any evidence to say he had been wounded and had he been a signaller. They supplied me with a copy of a page out of his diary and a photo of him in hospital. Good job I did contact them. They saved the day and the case was eventually excepted. So that was 2 cases out of 2 cases successful. A rededication service was planned for the 24th March 2020 in Bancourt British Cemetery, but was cancelled due to the CCP virus, hopefully next year.

 

The 3rd case was for an unknown Company Sergeant Major of the 2nd Ox &Bucks. He is listed as an unknown, C S M 2nd Bn Ox & Bucks with a date of death 24/03/1918, that how he is listed on a cemetery list for Delsaux Farm Cemetery. Four vital clues, why is he an unknown? I researched him and came up with Company Sergeant Major William Henry Bax 2nd Battalion Ox & Bucks Light Infantry killed on the 24/03/1918. Once again this case was eventually excepted and a rededication service will be arranged for next year I hope.

 

My 4th case is for an unknown Sgt of the 5th Battalion London Rifle Brigade posted to the 1/28th (Artist Rifles), who was killed on the 24/03/1918. My research led me to  Sergeant James Gration DCM, 1st/28th Battalion Artist Rifles who was killed 24/03/1918.About 2 years ago the C W G C sent me an email saying that they could not finf any other candidate other than Sgt Gration, so that gave me hope on my case. I received an email yesterday informing me that it is now with the JCCC awaiting a decision and it may be a while for an answer due to Covid, Sothat one sounds positive. He is buried in Lebecquiere Cemetery.

I am now about to present another case for an unknown L/Cpl of the 4th Bn Bedfordshire Regiment who was killed on the 24/03/1918. Once again he is listed within a cemetery list as an Unknown, L/Cpl, Bedfordshire Regiment, date of death 24/03/1918. Why is he an unknown? with those clues. I believe he is Lance Corporal Charles Madgwick of the 4th Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment who was killed on the 24/03/1918. I am working on 5 men of the Royal Field Artillery who are buried side by side in Bancourt British Cemetery, that might be a tough one. I believe they are a gun crew from "B" Battery 112th Brigade, one again I am sure they were killed on the 24/03/1918. I know that their battery was just outside Bancourt village that day. I can only try.

I agree they seem to take about 3 years to reach a decision, but its worth it when you are right and in some cases give closure to family members. I am aged 71 now so I will have to work a bit faster. My success rate so far is 3 cases presented and 3 excepted and hopefully 1 pending. But I still haven't got my Great Uncle yet, I will probably be well into my 70s when I get a decision. Hope I haven't bored you guys to much. Keep up the good work and get them named they deserve it

Kind Regards

Andy           

             

 

 

 

 

 

 

My 2nd to last case was approved and finally rededicated after a massive amount of work. Hundreds and hundreds of hours - took years. MoD (JCCC) and CWGC both subsequently issued statements which could only be read as their having spotted the grave and then identified the burial. My last case did not take place in "stages" - but rather "phases" - each "phase" marking an escalation of the degree of "push" which we felt had to be applied to get the case through. Three years is about right for what the submitter may consider to be a "simple and straightforward" case. We are now at "10th Phase" with the last case fully approved and two rededication ceremonies to be arranged post-covid 19. B****y hard work. Frustrating to the nth degree. Blood pressure occasionally through the roof and into lower-earth orbit.

 

"The system" seems to be quite at ease with "in from the cold" rubber-stamp cases, but anything leaning towards heavyweight research or analysis / understanding apparently baffles them, and induces a fall-back position of denial being the easy (escape) route to take.

 

Do it again ? - yes, but my approach, post-submission, would be different.

Tom

 

[thetrenchrat22]

Andy 

 

its an interesting statement you make 

 

‘I received an email yesterday informingme that it is now with the JCCCawaiting a decision and it may be awhile for an answer due to Covid,‘ 

 

the only time I’ve ever received an email, is to say it’s been passed from the CWGC to the NAM but never an email to say it’s been passed by the the NAM to the JCCC, which there should be an email as you should be made aware of your case at each particular point on the case submission. 
 

one of my cases was actually sitting with the JCCC up to a couple of weeks ago and I’m still waiting for the email JCCC and i only was made aware of this fact by a member of this Forum, so it is strange that somebody else, gets to hear about my cases then me.  
 

Alan

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

10 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

 

Er ... I don't think I did 

Tom

[KIRKY]

out of interest where do you start? My GT Unlce kia 13/5/1916 attacking Vimy with 13th Cheshires body never recovered. Nearby in the Canadian Cemetery there is an unknown Cheshires Soldier who I have adopted as him. Is there anyway of knowing anything about the unknown?

Tony

[thetrenchrat22]

7 minutes ago, KIRKY said:

out of interest where do you start? My GT Unlce kia 13/5/1916 attacking Vimy with 13th Cheshires body never recovered. Nearby in the Canadian Cemetery there is an unknown Cheshires Soldier who I have adopted as him. Is there anyway of knowing anything about the unknown?

Tony

What is the name of your Great Uncle.  The full name of the cemetery and the plot, Row and grave number

[KIRKY]

Hi he is William George Hughes W/418 13th Cheshires killed 13/5/1916. 

The grave is in Canadian no 2 Neuville St Vaast , think it it is in Plot 8 HH

this does not seem far from where he was killed , tried to identify the crater he was attacking when killed.

Kind regards 

Tony

[thetrenchrat22]

1 hour ago, KIRKY said:

Hi he is William George Hughes W/418 13th Cheshires killed 13/5/1916. 

The grave is in Canadian no 2 Neuville St Vaast , think it it is in Plot 8 HH

this does not seem far from where he was killed , tried to identify the crater he was attacking when killed.

Kind regards 

Tony

If you look at CEFSG items above this post and have look a section for GRRF and COB 

 

The COBS it will tell you, where the unknown was orginially buried and how there indentifred 

[andrew pugh]

Hi KIRKY

On the 1/05/1916 the 13th Battalion Cheshire Regiment lost 13 men 6 are commemorated on the Arras memorial to the missing and 7 are buried in Ecoivres Cemetery Mont st Eloi.

I would check out that cemetery to see if there are any unknown casualties belonging to the 13th Battalion Cheshire Regiment. Contact the C W G C and ask for a copy of the cemetery list for Ecoivres Cemetery Mont st Eloi the one that lists all the casualties, known and unknown. I think its on an Exel format spread sheet. Ask to speak to or contact Roy Hemmington, he is very helpful fella.

Regards

Andy

[micks]

Hi Andy

 

I started my research in 2008 although I didn't start presenting cases until 2014.

I have submitted a total of forty five reports with twenty one approved and four rejected.

 

Mick

[Chesterboy]

1 hour ago, micks said:

Hi Andy

 

I started my research in 2008 although I didn't start presenting cases until 2014.

I have submitted a total of forty five reports with twenty one approved and four rejected.

 

Mick

How many, you got on tips on the layout of what a report should look like.  
 

please send example

[micks]

Chesterboy

 

I use a bog standard report format. However if you visit the commemoration page at the CWGC website there is information on submitting a case.

 

 

 

 

 

[Chesterboy]

1 hour ago, micks said:

Chesterboy

 

I use a bog standard report format. However if you visit the commemoration page at the CWGC website there is information on submitting a case.

 

 

 

 

 

I’ve read that and I’m baffled by it 

 

do you have an example of what the layout should look at. 
 

I’ve tried the one that Richard Laughton had put together, (May his soul rest in peace) but it does not work.  

[Chesterboy]

11 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

Hi KIRKY

On the 1/05/1916 the 13th Battalion Cheshire Regiment lost 13 men 6 are commemorated on the Arras memorial to the missing and 7 are buried in Ecoivres Cemetery Mont st Eloi.

I would check out that cemetery to see if there are any unknown casualties belonging to the 13th Battalion Cheshire Regiment. Contact the C W G C and ask for a copy of the cemetery list for Ecoivres Cemetery Mont st Eloi the one that lists all the casualties, known and unknown. I think its on an Exel format spread sheet. Ask to speak to or contact Roy Hemmington, he is very helpful fella.

Regards

Andy

The CWGC website shows 15 men from the Cheshire Regiment died on the 13th May 1916 

 

14 - 13th Battalion 

1 - 10th Battalion 

 

of the 13th Cheshire’s, 7 are buried in known graves.  
 

6 of them are on the Arras Memorial 

 

KEARNS

WILLIAM JOHN

 

The above named soldier of the 13th Cheshire’s who also died on the 13th May 1916.  
 

is also missing and is named on the Loos Memorial.  
 

why is that 

[andrew pugh]

Hi Chesterboy

I used Geoffs Search Engine to obtain the casualties of the 13th Cheshire's who were killed on the 13/05/1916.

Acton A C          Arras Memorial

Blundell W         Arras Memorial

Breslin F         Ecoivres  Mont st Eloi

Fabby R         Ecoivres   Mont st Eloi

Goodger F W    Arras Memorial

Hughes W G     Arras Memorial

Kerr H            Ecoivres  Mont st Eloi

Owens J         Ecoivres Mont st Eloi

Parson S G     Ecoivres Mont st Eloi

Selby F           Ecoivres Mont st Eloi 

Shakeshaft H Ecoivres Mont st Eloi

Strutt F             Arras Memorial

Whitby H         Arras Memorial

Regards

Andy

[jay dubaya]

6 hours ago, Chesterboy said:

 

KEARNS

WILLIAM JOHN

 

The above named soldier of the 13th Cheshire’s who also died on the 13th May 1916.  
 

is also missing and is named on the Loos Memorial.  
 

why is that 

Without looking I’d suggest he was possibly attached to another battalion/regiment.
It’s a must to check for those attached when searching as this can drastically change the numbers. One case had 37 men KIA who had been attached at time of death - not one of these men is recorded as such in the CWGC database, the information was taken from the Soldiers Effects Register which has proved invaluable for such searches.

 

J

[Chesterboy]

The original memorial register shows that he was 10th Cheshire and this shows also in Soldiers Died. 
 

the website today, shows 13th Cheshire’s 
 

the effects register, the medals rolls, all show him as 13th Cheshire’s but not mention of him being attached to the 10th Cheshire’s 

 

the 10th were out of the line and training on the 13th May 1916 

 

so is he 10th or 13th and therefore should be on the Loos Memorial or the Arras Memorial 

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

On 12/11/2020 at 17:45, thetrenchrat22 said:

If you look at CEFSG items above this post and have look a section for GRRF and COB  The COBS it will tell you, ...

 

"Abbreviations should be used as an aid to the reader, rather than as a convenience for the author."

 

I can't remember how many times I have posted about the use of abbreviations here - but can you possibly imagine how utterly baffling all of that will be to the uninitiated !?

Apart from the absolutely blindingly obvious such as The Monarch of The United Kingdom "HM" Queen Elizabeth, abbreviations should always be prefaced with the full and explanatory title - "When he joined the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) ..." - and from that point onwards in the same topic "RFC" can be used to represent the Royal Flying Corps.

Please.

Tom

[KIRKY]

3 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

 

"Abbreviations should be used as an aid to the reader, rather than as a convenience for the author."

 

I can't remember how many times I have posted about the use of abbreviations here - but can you possibly imagine how utterly baffling all of that will be to the uninitiated !?

Apart from the absolutely blindingly obvious such as The Monarch of The United Kingdom "HM" Queen Elizabeth, abbreviations should always be prefaced with the full and explanatory title - "When he joined the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) ..." - and from that point onwards in the same topic "RFC" can be used to represent the Royal Flying Corps.

Please.

Tom

Tom , yes I find these baffling!

Tony

[jay dubaya]

3 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

 

"Abbreviations should be used as an aid to the reader, rather than as a convenience for the author."

 

 

That's a fair statement and after being at the end of a similar post from... it's only fair that I agree... I paused on 'COB' for a moment and have assumed Concentration Of Burial, which may refer to the Concentration of Graves (Exhumation and Re-burials) Burial Return, often seen as CoG-BR or CoG.

Of course I may be wrong...

[Saddler]

I've  submitted three , one successfully ( after initially being unsuccessful , but another researcher and NZ defence force historians finding  evidence that was not available at the time of my research to confirm it 

 ) and I have recently  submitted two more with one on the way.  In my experience proving that it is NOT any other candidate takes as much, if not more time than actually working out who your unknown is. I specialise in finding NZers, as far as I know I am unique in that.

 

[Cheshire22]

Interesting to look at

i liked the comment ‘the file fall on my desk’ so I take it that your not the guy in the news clip. 

if not, I’m surprised that the news people did not make with you, surely they must have been given your name

[Saddler]

1 hour ago, Cheshire22 said:

Interesting to look at

i liked the comment ‘the file fall on my desk’ so I take it that your not the guy in the news clip. 

if not, I’m surprised that the news people did not make with you, surely they must have been given your name

No, it's not me in the clip. I have spoken to Matthew though, and he is a top bloke  I'm not worried I wasn't contacted, what's important is Ernie Parry got his name on his grave and his family got closure . I was the original researcher, someone in Belgium researched as well and they deserve credit for that. We were all thanked on the NZ Embassy in Belgium's Facebook page, and I'm more than happy with just knowing I was right