Holger Kotthaus Posted 28 October , 2020 Share Posted 28 October , 2020 BNR 1915, was S.S. CECIL RHODES sunk by S.S. GOETZEN? In many internet platforms and blogs, and even now in books, the claim appears that the “German steamer `Goetzen´ sank the British steamer` Cecil Rhodes´ in summer 1915.” However, not by gunfire, but “. . . towed it from land and sunk it in deep water.” Does anyone know the original source of this claim? Link to post Share on other sites
corisande Posted 28 October , 2020 Share Posted 28 October , 2020 (edited) This web site has, with the implication that SS Cecil Rhodes was alreeady a wreck The Goetzen’s only “act of aggression” took place shortly after it was taken into service at the beginning of July 1915, when it towed the British steamer Cecil Rhodes from its position in Kassakalave at the southern end of Lake Tanganyika and sunk it in deep water. and note 56 relating to it says Kurt Assmann: Der Krieg zur See 1914-1918, p. 189 and Sarah Paulus e-mail dated 30. 8. 2013 after appropriate evaluation of the inventory number RM/8, archive number 368 and inventory number N 103, archive number 84 in the Bundesmilitärarchiv (Federal Military Archive), Freiburg: The sinking of the British wreck by the Goetzen is apparently confirmed by document copies from the Bundesmilitärarchiv Freiburg. At the beginning of July 1915, Zimmer sailed to Bismarckburg on account of a discussion with Wahle. On 4 July he anchored with the Goetzen off Kasakalawe. On the same day, or shortly thereafter, the wreck of the Cecil Rhodes was pulled off the beach and towed into deep water, where it sank a short time later. The twin-propeller steamer, which had been driven ashore by a storm, had a similar displacement to the Hedwig von Wissmann and had already been the target of an expedition under the leadership of Lieutenant Commander Kendrick on 19/20 November 1914. Whilst on that occasion a steamer, no longer serviceable and laid up nearby, and two steel boats were destroyed, consideration was being given to the idea of provisionally restoring the well-preserved Cecil Rhodes and towing it away after building a launchway. However, a surprise attack by the enemy on 20 November forced the expedition to blow up the steamer and retreat. Edited 28 October , 2020 by corisande Link to post Share on other sites
charlie2 Posted 28 October , 2020 Share Posted 28 October , 2020 (edited) Page 189 from Der Krieg zur See, Die Kämpfe in den Kolonien Edited 28 October , 2020 by charlie2 Link to post Share on other sites
Holger Kotthaus Posted 30 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2020 Hello corisande and charlie2 Thank you for your answers, which confirm my assumption and view. I am familiar with the mentioned source, “Der Krieg zur See, die Kämpfe in den Kolonien“. As well the references by Sarah Paulus. I am now disregarding all other subsequent-sources, because they are nothing other than 'copy-and-past' information. What just amazes and makes me almost suspicious is the fact that this (alleged) action is not listed in the other primary sources which are known to me. Since the three warring nations, Belgium, United Kingdom and Germany were involved in the events at the southern end of Lake Tanganyika in the summer of 1915, reliable primary sources from all three nations are also available: "Les campagnes Coloniales Belges 1914 - 1918", Ministere de la defense nationale, Bruxelles 1927, Tome I, Les opérations belges en Rhodésie (1914-1915), Chapitre III, Opérations du début de l´année 1915, Chapitre V, Attaques allemandes sur Saisi, Chapitre VI, Intervention du IIIe bataillon en Rhodésie, "La Campagne du Tanganika", Chapitre I, La situation au Tanganika (Fin 1915) Par le Colonel du Génie, Georg Moulaert, L’Edition universelle, Bruxelles 1934 "Military operations East Africa", compiled by Lieutenant-Colonel Charles Hordern, UK 1941 Chapter X, On the defensive (continued): The Southern area, August 1914 – May 1915 Chapter XI, On the defensive (concluded): The Southern area, June 1915 – April 1916 “Die Opearationen in Ost-Afrika“, Weltkrieg 1914 – 1918, Ludwig Boell, Hamburg 1951 VI. Kapitel, Die Entwicklung an den Grenzen bis April 1915, Tanganjika-See VII. Kapitel, Britisch-belgische Offensivpläne und Ihre Zerschlagung durch Kleinkrieg und Gegenstöße “Der Feldzug in Ostafrika 1914-1918“, Originalmanuskript, Ludwig Boell, Nachlassakte N14 / 4, II. Band, 11. Kapitel, “Die Ereignisse an der Bismarckburg-Grenze von Kriegsausbruch bis Mai 1916“ “Auf See unbesiegt“, Die Möwe Mannschaft auf dem Tanganjika-See. Kapitän zur See Gustav Zimmer, im Kriege Militärbefehlshabe am Tanganjika See, Vizeadmiral a.D. Eberhard v. Mantey, München 1921 But also in other sources, I could not find any mention of this event. Each of the sources mentioned above explicitly mentions the action on November 20, 1914 at Kasakalawe, when the CECIL RHODES was blown up and thus destroyed; - in all details. Other, much less spectacular processes are also listed consistently. But why not, that the GOETZEN (allegedly) sank the CECIL RHODES again in the summer of 1915, or is said to have towed it from land? Does anyone know other sources that describe this event? Cheers Holger Link to post Share on other sites
corisande Posted 30 October , 2020 Share Posted 30 October , 2020 I suppose that irt really was not an "event". The Cecil Rhodes was badly damaged and the Germans appear to have wanted to remove any chance of the British repairing it. So towed it out into deep water and scuttled it. I see that the wreck was found a number of years ago by recreational divers The British were very bad at publicising their defeats. British school books hardly mention the loss of the American Colonies, nor the half of France in the Middle Ages. I looked in the Times archives for any mention of this incident, and there was only one, non specific and fairly oblique Clearly censorship came into play to a certain extent as well, as alluded to in the Times report. Apart from the Times report here I only found one other in the British press, and that is just a word for word copy of this Link to post Share on other sites
Holger Kotthaus Posted 31 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2020 “I suppose that irt really was not an "event".” I also meant the title "event" more ironically. “So towed it out into deep water and scuttled it.” I doubt, for the reasons given above, that the GOETZEN towed the CECIL RHODES into deep water. “The British were very bad at publicising their defeats.” No nation likes to have any defeats or lost battles portrayed as such. One, and the same process was certainly presented differently; - “the water glass is half full - or half empty”. But precisely because of this case, I miss such a 'success report' in other reputable German sources. “I see that the wreck was found a number of years ago by recreational divers.” Do you have further information about it? Years ago I found these pictures, but that's no proof for me. (The second photo is definitely not a remnant from the CECIL RHODES.) (PHOTO UPLOADING IS CURRENTLY NOT POSSIBLE) Link to post Share on other sites
helpjpl Posted 31 October , 2020 Share Posted 31 October , 2020 25 minutes ago, Holger Kotthaus said: “I see that the wreck was found a number of years ago by recreational divers.” Do you have further information about it? Years ago I found these pictures, but that's no proof for me. (The second photo is definitely not a remnant from the CECIL RHODES.) (PHOTO UPLOADING IS CURRENTLY NOT POSSIBLE) The wreck of the Cecil Rhodes in Lake Tanganyika: https://www.wivenhoehistory.org.uk/content/new-contributions/the-wreck-of-the-cecil-rhodes-in-lake-tanganyika JP Link to post Share on other sites
Holger Kotthaus Posted 31 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2020 Hallo helpjpg, Excellent; - Thank you for very much for this very helpful information. That's the first time I hear or read about it. So you never stop learning; - and that's just as well. Just because of the pictures, I'm really convinced. Thank you again for your important additions! (- -) I still allow myself to correct a few small things in the article: “On the 18th November 1914 she was captured by auxiliary warships of the Imperial German Navy at Kasakalawe, Lake Tanganyika, and on the following day was sunk in the lake to prevent her conversion, repair and use as a warship.” 1. It was not November 18, but November 19, 1915 when CECIL RHODES was blown up "Operations against Kasakalawe and Kituta" At the beginning of November 1914, Lieutenant-Commander Zimmer received the message from the Bismarckburg post that there were still two small steamers lying on English territory at the extreme southern end of the lake, which had not been moved for a few years but could possibly be made ready for use again. On the basis of this report, Lieutenant-Commander Zimmer announced in the middle of November 1914 “Hedwig von Wissmann” and “Kingani” under the command of Captain-lieutenant a. D. Oskar Kendrick sent south to investigate. On November 18, 1914, a small steamer "Good News" was found by this expedition near Kituta. A closer examination showed that the hull and especially the boiler were so rusted that a restoration was hardly an option. Therefore it was blown up as well as two old steel boats lying near the steamer. There was nothing to be seen of the enemy. On November 19, 1914, the expedition arrived at Kasakalawe and found the well-preserved steamer “Cecil Rhodes”, somewhat larger than “Hedwig von Wissmann”, which was also towed ashore. Some of the base plates of the hull were dented, but the rest of the steamer was intact and could have been towed without great effort after minor repairs and after creating a runway. This place was also unoccupied, as the British had given up the Kasakalawe station because of the contamination of the place with sleeping sickness before the war. A great deal of telegraph material was found in the station buildings; - including about 230 km of copper telegraph wire and hundreds of iron telegraph poles. That was of the greatest value for the German colony, since up until then only one German telephone line from Kigoma to Bismarckburg had been laid along Lake Tanganyika. In response to his report of the findings in Kasakalawe, the leader of the expedition was ordered to tow the steamer and retrieve the telegraph material.The Schutztruppe detachment stationed in Bismarckburg was ordered to cover the operations ashore to Kasakalawe, Lieutenant z. S. Job Odebrecht with some Askaris and repair and towing material for support. Work began on November 19, 1914 and the first telegraph material had already been brought on board and then brought to Bismarckburg by the “Kingani”. On November 20, however, the enemy appeared unexpectedly in front of the workplace, as he had not been noticed by our own posts.The situation was determined by the leader of the small Detachment from Bismarckburg, Lieutenant d. R. Wilhelm Baum, saved by being able to repel the enemy attack with his Askaris from his extended position close to the steamer. The enemy who attacked with two M.G. then carried the firefight again up to 100 meters from the steamer. Since "Hedwig von Wissmann" and "Kingani" were not present due to the removal of the captured material and it was questionable that the small detachment that had gone ashore would be able to withstand further attacks, Lieutenant Baum had the steamer blown up at places already prepared for this. After another 2 ½ hours "Hedwig von Wissmann" appeared and decided the fight by using her two 3.7 cm revolver-guns. The enemy then withdrew towards Abercorn. Letters and radio messages intercepted later showed that the attacking enemy unit was an English and an Belgian company. The steamer “Cecil Rhodes” had been blown up so thoroughly by Lieutenant Baum that repairs or towing could no longer be considered.” 2. It was not the Imperial German Navy, but the naval forces of the "Schutztruppe" The GOETZEN and all other ships never officially received the status of H.M.S. / (S.M.S. = Seiner Majestät Schiff) and was not referred to as such, but was always 'only' part of the land forces, i.e. the `Schutztruppe´ in GEA. The members of the `Department Möwe´, which took over the GOETZEN and other ships, belonged at the beginning of the war to the Imperial German Navy, also the survey ship S.M.S. MÖVE, but the GOETZEN was not. All naval forces were under the command of the land forces in DOA; - the "Schutztruppe". 3. The CECIL RHODES was not towed and sunk the next day, but 7 months later, in June 1915. The steamer GOETZEN was only taken over by the Schutztruppe on June 9, 1915 and put into service the next day. Unfortunately I cannot load any pictures at the moment. My computer has Covid 19 too ?! (That's why I'm not going to keep a distance of 1.50 meters from my laptop or go into quarantine) Cheers Holger Link to post Share on other sites
Holger Kotthaus Posted 22 November , 2020 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2020 Here are some photos from further remains from the “Cecil Rhodes” which we found 2016. http://www.abercornucopia.com/naval-occassions The photos shows a steam-boiler of a typical marine steam engine at the end of the 19th century which are used by the Royal Navy with vertical triple-expansion and direct-acting engine and the feeding pipelines to the four cylinders. Here is a size comparison between S.S. “Goetzen” and the S.S. “Cecil Rhodes”. Source: Robert´s People, The Life of Sir Robert Williams, R. Hutchinson & G. Martelli, UK 1971, p.104 / 105 Link to post Share on other sites
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