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Remembered Today:

WOII Albert George Savage


ForeignGong

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Hi

Once again I am researching a chap and hit a brick wall, so any help greatly appreciated.

What I know so far.

 

Enlisted date unknown. But possibly Sept 1914. No papers on FMP.

Posted to South Wales Borders with Regt No 14207

From service papers

14210 SWB Attested 28/8/1914

14209 SWB Attested 31/8/1914

14206 SWB Attested 1/9/1914

14205 SWB Attested 2/9/1914

14203 SWB Attested 31/8/1914

 

Embarked for France unknown, as a WO II, so could he be a pre war soldier??

Transferred to Machine Gun Corps with Regt No 5584

Awarded Belgium Croix de Guerre, L.G. 12 Jul 1918, as a Warrant Officer Class II. MGC, Cardiff. Don't know the connection to Cardiff.

Class Z on 1 Mar 1919.

 

The original recipient of Service No 14207 was James Henry Jenkins, papers on FMP, who only served 49 days from 28 Aug 1914 to 15 Oct 1914 & was discharged “under para 392 (iii) (C) KR

 

Anyone able to point me in the right direction please.

 

Peter

Savage MIC.PNG

Edited by ForeignGong
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There is a pension file on Fold3, as 5584 CSM Savage, MGC.

Year of birth 1897

Date of discharge 1/3/19 with rheumatism and debility

Address as below.  Quick look at Cardiff on Google maps, I read it as Wauntreoda Road.

 

address.png

Edited by Neil 2242
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Hello Peter

 

He seems to have embarked for France after 31 Dec 1915, as the card does not show the award of either of the Stars.

 

The normal convention is to show the regiments/corps served in date order, but in this case, and based on the numbering, he seems to have gone abroad with the South Wales Borderers and transferred later to the MGC, in which he was promoted to WO II, which I think means that he was a Company Sergeant-Major. He probably joined up in August 1914 as a Kitchener volunteer: if he had been a pre-war Regular it would be unlikely that he did not serve abroad earlier.

 

Ron

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Afraid this does not add, but does confirm various clues - Western Mail 16 Sep 1919

 

savafe.jpg.6afacf9984b049bb94c9e55a74deb56d.jpg

 

and also 1919

 

savage.jpg.cc7299663f5efbe433ab227735bf9f69.jpg

 

and he wanted to buy a pub in 1919 as well

 

savage2.jpg.4ba77aec0c64b8dc015db7bc212430d3.jpg

Edited by corisande
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In 1914 it was still possible to sign up under Regular terms. I think that service under Special Reserve terms was amended to be "short service". Both had similar number sequences. Without seeing a service record, I don't know if he joined up under short service terms, or as a regular. I don't know when the two sequences were stopped, and replaced with just the one for Regular / Special Reserve.

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SWB enlistments in 1914

 

14184 James Brown enlisted on 2 Sep 1914

14200 Thomas Morgan enlisted on 2 Sep 1914

14227 Frederick Evans enlisted on 2 Sep 1914 

However
14199 Arthur Caldicott enlisted on 11 Sep 1914
14290  William Henry Bissex enlisted on 12 Sep 1914 

I suspect your man is in the second category of service

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1. If his dob on Pension Card is correct he was 16 or 17 when he enlisted. It is unlikely that he was a pre-war regular IMO

 

2. There is nothing in BMD for a birth of Albert George Savage. But there is an illegitimate Albert George Savage Stratton. The parents seem to have married soon after his birth

 

3. The link to Cardiff is weird. Certainly his name does not "sound" Welsh, and nothing in 1911 census in Cardiff. I failed to get the inhabitants of his street address in 1911, seemed to get every other number. But the newspaper cuttings showed that he certainly there in 1919

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Just noticed another detail from his pension card...he's listed as married.

He would only have been aged 22 or so in 1919, so the marriage has to be pretty recent.

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I'm not sure if it helps, but a look on Ancestry brings up an Alfred George Savage, mother Lily Stratton, christened on 9 November 1898 in Saint Albans, Hertfordshire, England, which seems a long way away from Cardiff. The 1901 England census has Albert G Savage aged 25, Lily Savage aged 24, Albert G Savage aged 3, and younger brother William aged 91/2 months living in St Albans. The family is still living in St Albans in the 1911 England Census, with three more children, Herbert, Horace, and Florance. No sign of William, although Herbert's age is given as 10, so I am wondering if William and Herbert are the same child. Albert senior's occupation in both censuses is given as maltster, so a brewery worker. No obvious family connections to Wales, Albert senior was born in Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, and Lily was born in Hatfield, Hertfordshire.

Edited by Tawhiri
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Dear All,

Brilliant researching and therefore helping a Member who had come up against the proverbial Brick Wall.

I note this, because I have been in the same situation: likewise saved by selfless Great War Forum research-wizards. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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I'm wondering if we are chasing the wrong Albert George Savage here. CWGC has the death of an A Savage (service # G/23934) on 22 September 1918 while serving with The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)/10th (R. East Kent and West Kent Yeomanry) Bn. He is described as the son of Mr A G Savage, of 39 Holywell Hill, St Albans, which is not the address the family were living at in the 1911 census, which was 54 Fishpool St, St Albans, but still St Albans.

Edited by Tawhiri
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4 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

I'm wondering if we are chasing the wrong Albert George Savage

 

The one I am chasing is the one on the Pension Card, who was alive in 1919 with the 3 newspaper references in Whitchurch

 

It is difficult to find any Albert George Savage born  1897.

 

The man that died in 1918 that you refer to was a Private not a WOII - his cwgc entry

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55 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

a look on Ancestry brings up an Alfred George Savage, mother Lily Stratton, christened on 9 November 1898 in Saint Albans, Hertfordshire, England, which seems a long way away from Cardiff.

 

This was the man that I referred to in an earlier post on this thread, he was in fact registered as "Alfred George Savage Stratton" the illegitimate son of Lily Stratton, who later, in 1899, married an Albert George Savage in St Albans

 

To that extent the man who died  in 1918 looks like their son, and not the man living in Cardiff that we are chasing

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Here is another rabbit to chase

 

BMD shows a marriage in Cardiff in Apr/Jun 1907 of

 

Albert George Savage

to Florence Mary Ambrose or Ellen Connelly

 

But I cannot get anywhere with them in Cardiff in 1911

 

Clearly not a man born in 1897 (if we assume that the Pension Card dob is correct)

 

 

   
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  • Admin

He transferred to the MGC on the 1st January 1916.  The Medal Rolls show a number of men from various Regiments transferred into the Corps as NCOs. The sequence ends at 5586 with a block transfer of the MG Section of the KSLI.

 

The Medal Card shows WO II which, for the purpose of the issue of his medals is 'the highest rank attained, provided this was held in a theatre of war'.  It is therefore possible he was a more junior NCO when he joined the BEF with the MGC in early 1916.

 

Illustrative is the service record of 5571 Fulbrook, an old soldier who re-enlisted in the Royal Berkshire and was transferred as a Sergeant to the MGC as above, rapidly promoted to CQMS.

 

When the MGC was formed numbering began at 3000 so 5584 is an early transfer.

 

I've been the length of Wauntreoda Road in 1911 - no trace; likewise I can find both women in the 1901 Census in Cardiff, but not under the name of Savage in 1911. Ellen Connelly married a Robert Graham, so Albert George Savage married Florence Mary (Florrie) Ambrose who was born 1880.  I suspect this is more likely to be our man.  Assuming he was around the same age as his spouse he would have been 34 on enlistment in September 1914. 

 

Where records survive the cohort transferring to the MGC above seem to be older, and as mentioned above I 'd go with enlistment under SR or regular terms e.g. 14290 Bissex referred to above enlisted under SR terms having previously served '12 years  with the 1st Bn'; attested and mobilised Brecon 12 September 1914.

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6 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Albert George Savage married Florence Mary (Florrie) Ambrose who was born 1880.  I suspect this is more likely to be our man.  Assuming he was around the same age as his spouse he would have been 34 on enlistment in September 1914. 

 

That was my feeling (and if you plumb the "Private" trees on Ancestry, they too think that Florence Mary Ambrose married Albert George Savage

 

So we are left with a lot of questions in order to establish that this is the man on the Pension Card and in the 1919 newspaper cuttings

 

  • what happened to Albert George and Florence Mary after they married in Cardiff in 1907, they do not seem to be in 1911 census
  • could there possibly been two George Albert Savage in Cardiff at this time - one born 1897 with the Pension Card  and other born around 1880 who married in 1907
  • it is a rare name, particularly in Cardiff,  and either they are one and the same man, or one is the son of the other by an earlier marriage
  • if they are the same man, then the dob on the Pension Card is wrong - not unknown, but not common
  • if they are the same man, we are still left with the problem of who the Albert George Savage was who married in 1907. Where was he born, and when
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Heres something to think about. The head of family in St. Albans is a Maltster, the man in Cardiff has advertised to buy a licensed premises.  A coincidence or is the son in St.Albans the same man with a link via the pub trade.

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4 hours ago, corisande said:

 

3. The link to Cardiff is weird. Certainly his name does not "sound" Welsh, and nothing in 1911 census in Cardiff. I failed to get the inhabitants of his street address in 1911, seemed to get every other number. But the newspaper cuttings showed that he certainly there in 1919

 

Just to tidy up a loose end in 1911 number 7 is occupied by William Dix, aged 37, his wife Annie and their seven children aged 15 yrs to 8 mos. No sign of either Savage.

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A look at the GRO Indexes brings up the births of several Albert George Savage's in the 1875-1900 timeframe, including the father of our St Albans Albert George Savage mentioned above. The one that catches my eye if we are looking for an Albert George Savage born around 1880 with a possible Cardiff connection is the Albert George Savage who's birth was registered in the first quarter of 1879 in Barton Regis, Gloucestershire. It's not Cardiff, or even Wales per se, but it is close to Bristol and not too far away from Cardiff. All the other Albert George Savage births in this time frame are well away from this part of England and Wales. And, as other's have mentioned, there are no 1897 Albert George Savage births. 

 

I did also try coming at it from the other end and looking in the 1939 England and Wales Register, but there were no obvious matches for an Albert George Savage born in either 1880 or 1897 with a Cardiff connection.

Edited by Tawhiri
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Wow, thank you so very much everyone.

I don't have access to Fold so the DOB helps.

5 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

A look at the GRO Indexes brings up the births of several Albert George Savage's in the 1875-1900 timeframe, including the father of our St Albans Albert George Savage mentioned above. The one that catches my eye if we are looking for an Albert George Savage born around 1880 with a possible Cardiff connection is the Albert George Savage who's birth was registered in the first quarter of 1879 in Barton Regis, Gloucestershire. It's not Cardiff, or even Wales per se, but it is close to Bristol and not too far away from Cardiff. All the other Albert George Savage births in this time frame are well away from this part of England and Wales. And, as other's have mentioned, there are no 1897 Albert George Savage births. 

 

I did also try coming at it from the other end and looking in the 1939 England and Wales Register, but there were no obvious matches for an Albert George Savage born in either 1880 or 1897 with a Cardiff connection.

Could the Born 1897 on the pension card be a transposed 1879, as a WOII at 20 years old seems a bit odd or is that feasible given the circumstances of WW1.

I tried all the Ancestry hits of Albert George Savage but could not figure out which was the chap I was researching.

As he was after a Pub, could this not be the father who was a maltster.

 

Once again, a big thank you for the help

 

Peter

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5 hours ago, ForeignGong said:

Could the Born 1897 on the pension card be a transposed 1879, as a WOII at 20 years old seems a bit odd or is that feasible given the circumstances of WW1.

 

My feeling is that the limited evidence we have points to a 1879 birth being possible. If Peter feels like buying the 1907 marriage cert in Cardiff to Florence Ambrose, then it should give his father (which may or may not be helpful)

 

I think we have ruled out the Maltster from St Albans and his family

 

I have found (I think) Albert George in Cardiff in 1930 running a club. There is a long article in the Western Mail which is amusing , on the police raid. 2 drunks playing hide & seek round a telephone box. This is only part of the article in the Western Mail, but there are no more clues in the rest of it

 

But neither he nor wife Florence are findable in 1939 Register

 

savage1.jpg.08a0ff545be0ea0155dcacd1211d5347.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by corisande
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15 hours ago, kenf48 said:

He transferred to the MGC on the 1st January 1916.  The Medal Rolls show a number of men from various Regiments transferred into the Corps as NCOs. The sequence ends at 5586 with a block transfer of the MG Section of the KSLI....

 

Illustrative is the service record of 5571 Fulbrook, an old soldier who re-enlisted in the Royal Berkshire and was transferred as a Sergeant to the MGC as above, rapidly promoted to CQMS.

 

When the MGC was formed numbering began at 3000 so 5584 is an early transfer.

 

There's a MCG number thread on here.

Thread:

 

Snippet from graph
 

MGC_numbers.JPG

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In respect of England & Wales GRO birth/marriage/death certificate info, the following is worth mentioning. The digital delivery method is even more appealing if you live overseas.
 

 

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The GRO Indexes have the birth of a Florence Mary Ambrose in the last quarter of 1879 registered in Cardiff, mother's maiden name is Trist so this looks to be the right Florence who married Albert George Savage in Cardiff in 1907. The England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 on Ancestry brings up one possibility for the corresponding death of a Florence Mary Savage with a birth year of 1879, in this case she was born on 31 August 1879 and her death was registered in April 1970 in Plymouth, Devon. I can find this Florence in the 1939 England and Wales Register living in the same location, she is described as married, but is living in a household with only two other people, one is an Alma F Thomas, the other has their record closed.

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