Scottman Posted 22 October , 2020 Share Posted 22 October , 2020 I am trying to research the Military Medal awarded to 774 Spr R Hodgkinson 55th W / Lanc D S Coy R E T F , all I have is his Gazette date of 29 8 1917 , any help with a possible citation or details about his service would be very helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 22 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2020 Sorry to say I put his number as 774 , when it should have been 432352 , my simple mistake with doing so much research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 22 October , 2020 Share Posted 22 October , 2020 (edited) Hi Scottman, 1 hour ago, Scottman said: any help with a possible citation or details about his service would be very helpful 1 hour ago, Scottman said: ...with doing so much research To avoid forum pals duplicating your research, may I ask what you already know? Edit: There is help on how to research a Military Medal here. From the war diary of the Adjutant and Quarter-Master General, 55 Division: Image sourced from Ancestry So you may be looking for an action/event around the start of July 1917. I see that the other men shown were also in the Divisional Signal Company. Regards Chris Edited 22 October , 2020 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 22 October , 2020 Share Posted 22 October , 2020 (edited) If you can visit Liverpool yourself (or find someone willing to check) this set of records in the Liverpool Record Office may be your friend. (in the Central Library in William Brown St and less than 5 minutes walk from Lime St Station). The archive isn't 100% complete, but I reckon there's about 75% of the citations for the infantry battalions I was researching, so you may be lucky with the RE. You can't just drop in, but have to book in advance with them so they can locate and bring the relevant records out of storage. If it's your first time there you need two forms of identification. http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=356+FIF%2f6%2f6%2f2 If it's on the 'Birthday List' the reference is http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=356+FIF%2f6%2f3%2f29 Edited 22 October , 2020 by IRC Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 23 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Many thanks Chris and Kevin , I don't have much information on Spr Hodkinson , only the date he arrived in France and London Gazette date for his M M. I will search the war diary for early July , but the war diary can be a bit hit and miss thanks Chris , Living in Manchester with the lockdown it looks like it will be a bit before I can make the visit to Liverpool Kevin many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 (edited) You can see a preview of his MM index card here (and order a download for free if you register): https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6174169 MM schedule no. 99782. As you already know, he served with the 55th Divisional Signal Company, RE. Their War Diary seems to be available here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354863 He served under 3 different service numbers (MIC free off Ancestry). His service medals were issued under 7863. Edited 23 October , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 23 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Many thanks Ivor , this will help me a lot , much appreciated Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 (edited) Further to Chris' helpful post from the Divisional Adjutant's WD, I can confirm that the schedule numbers for those 4 soldiers are consecutive, meaning that they were for the same action around May-June 1917 (Messines?): 99781 Joseph King 432353 99782 Robert Hodgkinson 432352 99783 Wilfred Bray 152245 99784 Charles Shepherd 432035 MM Index Card for Robert TNA ref. WO-372-23-120868 Edited 23 October , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 1 hour ago, Scottman said: Living in Manchester with the lockdown it looks like it will be a bit before I can make the visit to Liverpool Kevin many thanks Ditto, but you may be able to get someone local to have a look for you, as the Jeudwine papers are possibly the only surviving place the citation survives (if it was amongst those saved for the archive). Might be worth joining the Liverpool & SWL Family History group's Facebook page and asking on there. (Mary Fury, who runs the group actually helps out in the Family History section of the library, which is one the same floor as the Archives) The references for this person would need to order are '356/FIF/6/6/2 55th Division Royal Engineers Immediate Awards' and for the Birthday Honours '356/FIF/6/3/29 Royal Engineers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 23 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Many thanks for your kind help , much appreciated , I will check out the Liverpool and SWL Facebook page Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 2 hours ago, Scottman said: Living in Manchester with the lockdown it looks like it will be a bit before I can make the visit to Liverpool Kevin many thanks See also Chris' post / LLT on how to research a MM. If you've only 'remote access' [and have access to such a resource e.g. the British Newspaper Archive] a search of newspapers is a potentially good place to find something. Typically c.3 months from action to announcement in LG. Any newspaper report may have come from family or from the soldier so may be a bit more detailed [?colourful?] If not, and just written up by the paper, however also seems likely to just quote from the reverse of the medal "For bravery in the field" :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 23 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Hi Matlock 1418 , many thanks , yes I will have to check the Newspaper archive , could be a chance there is a mention of him , much appreciated Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 1 hour ago, Scottman said: I will have to check the Newspaper archive I wouldn't stick strictly until after the LG announcement - I'd try certainly from June/July 1917 I guess. [I don't have access, so sorry can't try for you] He might have been earlier awarded in the field so news might have got home a bit earlier and thus into the newspapers [???] Good luck. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 23 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Many thanks Matlock 1418 for all your help Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Hi, On Ancestry (link) his TFWM roll shows: Images sourced from Ancestry You can probably read something into his service by the eligibility qualifications - see the LLT here. Wiki expands a bit: The medal was established in April 1920 for award to members of the Territorial Force and Territorial Force Nursing Service who volunteered for service overseas on or before 30 September 1914, and served overseas. They had to: have been serving with the Force on 4 August 1914; or have completed four years service with the Force before 4 August 1914 and rejoined on or before 30 September 1914. In addition provided they: undertook, either verbally or by written agreement on or before 30 September 1914 to serve outside the United Kingdom, such agreement being operative after 4 August 1914, and have served outside the United Kingdom between 5 August 1914 and 11 November 1918 (both dates inclusive; the last date was in 1918 though the years on the reverse said 1914-19) and did not qualify for the 1914 Star or 1914-15 Star. His 6 digit RE service number is as the result of a new system of (re)numbering TF men which was introduced in 1917 - see the LLT here. Prior to it several men would have held the same lower (commonly 4) digit number. It's a shame that we can't be certain about which specific Battalion of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, or unit of the RE he served with prior to his 6 digit RE number and his subsequent MM with the Divisional Signal Company. If we did it might have been possible to date when the shorter numbers were issued. However, surrounding Robert on the medal roll page (Ancestry link) there are a number of men who appear to have gone from the LNL (under 4 digit numbers), to the RE where they were renumbered to new 4 digit numbers, and then renumbered to 6 digit RE numbers, based sequentially (allowing for 'fall outs') on their previous 4 digit RE number. There are some surviving service papers for 432359 Warr which show: Image sourced from Findmypast Unfortunately it doesn't show a date of transfer from the LNL to the RE. Wider near number sampling may prove helpful. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 (edited) The War Diary entry on 15th July 1917 records the 4 MMs. The previous page records regular repair of lines due to damage by hostile shell-fire: (Quelmes is west of St. Omer in France). Edited 23 October , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 23 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Many thanks again Chris for your help I appreciate it very much , best wishes Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 23 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2020 Thank you Ivor , it looks like he was awarded the M M for repairing lines , very much appreciated , Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 23 October , 2020 Share Posted 23 October , 2020 (edited) This zoomable map shows the area near Quelmes in 1917 (Reigersberg Chateau is in Austria?) https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464894 The previous WD page mention Boisdinghem and repairing buried lines in the 'RAMPARTS' damaged by shelling. They seem to have worked on the lines of communication between here and Ypres. "Reigersberg Chateau on the Yser canal some 500 yards to the north-west of Ypres". Here it is (top-left) below. Source: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464903 Edited 1 November , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 24 October , 2020 Share Posted 24 October , 2020 18 hours ago, clk said: Images sourced from Ancestry . There are some surviving service papers for 432359 Warr which show: Image sourced from Findmypast Unfortunately it doesn't show a date of transfer from the LNL to the RE. Wider near number sampling may prove helpful. Regards Chris Chris The Div Sigs Co disembarked at Havre on 08/01/1916 and the entry in the WD for 03/03/1916 records 7870 Dvr Warr, R S sent to hospital and evacuated. On 30/03/1916 it names a number of men who were sent to Base, being Time Expired and unwilling to re engage. One is 7825 Sgt Turner R. There is a Servive Record for 7825 Robert Henry Turner. He enlisted into the 5th Bn South Lancs in 1908 and there are a number of re engagement forms up to 1913 which show he was still with 5 South Lancs number 147. His obligation to serve outside the UK, signed I think 13/11/1914, shows 7825 WLD RE and there is a letter from him in the file which reads, "At the outbreak of war I was transferred to WLD RE". There are other previous references to him being 5 South Lancs att RE. Perhaps all those men on the Medal Rolls ex infantry were transferred at the same time. Brian Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 24 October , 2020 Share Posted 24 October , 2020 Thanks Brian, 2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said: Perhaps all those men on the Medal Rolls ex infantry were transferred at the same time. That's what I was thinking too. It looks likely that Robert may have originally joined the 5/LNL towards the end of July 1913 as 1805. Hopefully if Scottman can do some more work around his 7863 West Lancs RE number he might be able to firm up a potential transfer date. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 24 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2020 Hi Chris , that's very interesting about Robert joining the 5th L N L in 1913 , I will have to try and research the 5th L N L further , I might have to put a post on G W F , many thanks for all your help Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 24 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2020 Hi Brian , many thanks for all the information about the 5th L N L transferring to the W L D R E , very much appreciated Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottman Posted 24 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2020 Many thanks again Ivor with the map , the story about Robert Hodkinson 's M M is coming together Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 24 October , 2020 Share Posted 24 October , 2020 (edited) Alan 5 Loyal North Lancs was the TF Bn local to Bolton and based at Fletcher St Barracks. In normal circumstances I am in the History Centre on the library on Tuesday and Thursday mornings but not since the lockdown. There is no prospect of the library being back to normal for some time. I will look at some of the other ex LNL on the RE Medal Rolls Brian Edited 24 October , 2020 by brianmorris547 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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