Percy W. Singleton, "died from illness contracted during active service in the Great War" - not on CWGC?

[BereniceUK]

Came across this gravestone in Tadcaster Cemetery, and I can't find Singleton in the CWGC database. The General Register Office confirms the deaths of Percy William Singleton in the first quarter of 1920, in the Tadcaster registration district, and Frank Nottage Milsom in the fourth quarter of 1923, in the Knaresborough registration district.

 

The parents were William Milsom, died 31.3.1920, and Catherine Isabella Milsom, died 7.2.1923.

 

and their son-in-law

PERCY WILLIAM SINGLETON

who died Feb. 21st 1920

aged 32 years.

And their son

FRANK NOTTAGE MILSOM

who died Nov. 18th 1923

aged 36 years.

 

Who both died from illness contracted

during active service in the Great War

1914-1918

 

 

Edited 23 October , 2020 by BereniceUK

[sadbrewer]

Frank Nottage Milsom was 257359, Royal Engineers Railway troop.

[Guest]

 He died after the "official" end of the Great War in the UK.  The Armistice was a truce, the peace treaty at Versailles was in 1919- but for official administrative purposes the war ended  in mid-1921.  It may seem harsh in regard to Percy Singleton but for matters of pensions, awards of gallantry,etc. there had to be a stop sometime.  Thus, CWGC stops with 1921.  Of course, many,many men who were wounded or disabled by illness or injury died from effects decades and decades afterwards but, officially, they were no longer war casualties.

    It is broadly similar to the longstanding rule in criminal cases about when a victim of an attack dies- a year and a day and the attacker is clear of facing a charge of murder because of the element of doubt that some part of the death may be subsequent "natural causes" that might have happened anyway (eg The train driver in the Great Train Robbery, 1963) 

Edited 22 October , 2020 by Guest

[tootrock]

Percy Singleton's papers are on Ancestry. He was in the Honourable Artillery Company.

He died from Malignant Carditis.

Martin

[IPT]

56 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

Frank Nottage Milsom was 257359, Royal Engineers Railway troop.

 

His papers show that he was sent home from Alexandria in September 1919, and discharged in October 1919 with tubercle of lung, 100% degree of disablement, attributable to war service. Again, he died past the cut-off date.

[tootrock]

Percy Singleton's papers show he was discharged from the Army on the grounds of ill health which was "aggravated" by war service. If it had been "attributed" to war service presumably he would then have qualified for a War Grave.

Martin

[BereniceUK]

Thank you for all responses, especially to Tootrock for explaining Percy Singleton's cause of death.

[Matlock1418]

18 hours ago, BereniceUK said:

and their son-in-law

PERCY WILLIAM SINGLETON

who died Feb. 21st 1920

aged 32 years.

 

2 hours ago, tootrock said:

Percy Singleton's papers show he was discharged from the Army on the grounds of ill health which was "aggravated" by war service. If it had been "attributed" to war service presumably he would then have qualified for a War Grave.

SINGLETON, Percy. 10037. 1st., Honourable Artillery Company

Interestingly the pension records at the WFA/Fold3 do show a widow's pension award to Percy's widow: Edith Annie/Ann/Anne [b.2 May 1887, m.12.6.1915] of 26/8 for herself and 10/- for one child [not named] from 25.2.1920 - Living at Station House, Tadcaster.  It's a shame he wasn't commemorated at CWGC but the cash was probably welcomed [as best could be under the circumstances]

:-) M

Edited 22 October , 2020 by Matlock1418
added service no

[T, Fazzini]

Could they at least be listed with the Local Historian of the British legion Social Club of Veterans? Or preahps placemanent on the Village Soldier memorial/or Local Church?

[BereniceUK]

50 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

SINGLETON, Percy. 10037. 1st., Honourable Artillery Company

Interestingly the pension records at the WFA/Fold3 do show a widow's pension award to Percy's widow: Edith Annie/Ann/Anne [b.2 May 1887, m.12.6.1915] of 26/8 for herself and 10/- for one child [not named] from 25.2.1920 - Living at Station House, Tadcaster.  It's a shame he wasn't commemorated at CWGC but the cash was probably welcomed [as best could be under the circumstances]

:-) M

 

Thanks. Edith Ann on the gravestone, near the base.

 

 

30 minutes ago, T, Fazzini said:

Could they at least be listed with the Local Historian of the British legion Social Club of Veterans? Or preahps placemanent on the Village Soldier memorial/or Local Church?

 

 

There is/was a Tadcaster WW1 memorials site, but it's down at present. https://www.tadcaster-ww1-memorials.com/

 

Singleton isn't on the town memorial, but he's named on one of the plaques in the parish church - closed when I was there, photo taken from the Tadcaster Council page.  http://www.tadcastertowncouncil.gov.uk/Tadcaster_War_Memorial_24661.aspx So he has some remembrance.

Edited 22 October , 2020 by BereniceUK

[T, Fazzini]

At least his community acknowledges  his sacrifice.....

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What do his records say about the illness that caused him to be discharged?

If his records state that the illness causing his discharge was aggravated by service, and that the same illness was related to his death , then he would be eligible for CWGC commemoratin.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What do his records say about the illness that caused him to be discharged?

If his records state that the illness causing his discharge was aggravated by service, and that the same illness was related to his death , then he would be eligible for CWGC commemoratin.

 

    DB-Still has to be within the 1921 deadline.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

DB-Still has to be within the 1921 deadline.

Are we not talking about Percy then?

Percy died of 'Malignant Carditis'

If the cause of his discharge  was this, or something related, then he would qualify.

He is within the qualifying period.

 

Frank is 'out of time'.

 

On 22/10/2020 at 13:09, tootrock said:

Percy Singleton's papers show he was discharged from the Army on the grounds of ill health which was "aggravated" by war service.

 

[tootrock]

Percy Singleton died on 21st February 1920, so is well within the CWGC 1921 deadline.

Martin

[Guest]

Beg pardon-wrong man.   CWGC-Go for it!!  

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

SINGLETON, Percy. 10037. 1st., Honourable Artillery Company

Interestingly the pension records at the WFA/Fold3 do show a widow's pension award to Percy's widow

 

Here is the clearest of five pension records at WFA/Fold3

Image courtesy of Western front Association / Fold3 - with thanks

What especially caught my eye was the granting of pension under Articles 11 & 12 - Re: widows and children I believe.

However as I don't have a copy, or exact wording, of those Articles from the Royal Warrant I have restrained from further comment.

Was rather hoping Craig 'ss002d6252' might pick up on this.

Hope he [or someone with a copy of the Royal Warrant etc.] can help.

So am bouncing thread up again in anticipation

:-) M

 

[ss002d6252]

Article 11 of the 1917 RW (note that the rate paid increased over time from the original RW)

 

 

Article 12 is the addition made to Article 11 for any children.

 

Effectively the payment of the pension occurs only if the person met one of the criteria re death however in past discussions regarding pensions it appears that the CWGC will not accept it as evidence unless the card/ledger specifically states on it details of the death that show that it meets it the CWGC criteria - even if the fact that the pension being paid demonstrates that the relevant criteria must have been met.

 

Craig

[Matlock1418]

11 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Effectively the payment of the pension occurs only if the person met one of the criteria re death however in past discussions regarding pensions it appears that the CWGC will not accept it as evidence unless the card/ledger specifically states on it details of the death that show that it meets it the CWGC criteria - even if the fact that the pension being paid demonstrates that the relevant criteria must have been met.

Craig - thanks for your post.

Unfortunately there is no link / description of the cause of death on any of the pension records.

:-) M

[ss002d6252]

Personally - I think reliance on a specific statement on the card/ledger is wrong as to pay the pension in the first place the details had to be verified by the MoP but it's not me making the decision so...

 

Craig

[Knotty]

14 hours ago, tootrock said:

Percy Singleton died on 21st February 1920, so is well within the CWGC 1921 deadline.

Martin

Just to clarify the period runs rom 4th Aug 1914 until 31st Aug 1921.

Source CWGC

[BereniceUK]

16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Personally - I think reliance on a specific statement on the card/ledger is wrong as to pay the pension in the first place the details had to be verified by the MoP but it's not me making the decision so...

 

Craig

 

Would it help if I get a copy of his death certificate?

Edited 23 October , 2020 by BereniceUK

[Matlock1418]

16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Personally - I think reliance on a specific statement on the card/ledger is wrong as to pay the pension in the first place the details had to be verified by the MoP but it's not me making the decision so...

I agree, but it does seem to offer a small chink that there might be something somewhere, perhaps!

A Death Certificate might add more , but ... ???

:-) M

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, BereniceUK said:

 

Would it help if I get a copy of his death certifcate?

It's worth a try to see what it says.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, BereniceUK said:

Would it help if I get a copy of his death certificate?

I agree with Craig - certainly would seem a reasonable bet - and CWGC always like to have them.  A cheaper PDF version seems acceptable to them

:-) M