Medal Card Chas Fred Dawson of RAMC 1st West Lancashire Field Ambulance (decipher acroyms)

[Gail O]

Hello again,

Another of my Great Grandfathers is Charles Frederick Dawson born in 1876, Blackburn, Lancashire to a Master Bootmaker/Cordwainer William Dawson. Charles followed in his father’s profession through to his death in Blackpool in 1943. Although, the family's story is that he served the war (abroad somewhere) as a boot repairer I have no knowledge of which Corps, regiment and indeed whether he volunteered or was conscripted. My first thought was conscription in 1916 due to marital status & age, however, I recently found a plausible Medal Card which I am now looking into (see attached). The medal card reads enlistment on 02.09.14 so, if this is our Charles he would have been 37 years and volunteered.

 

Via links from this website… https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/field-ambulances-in-the-first-world-war/
I was encouraged to read that among the parties in a RAMC, Field Ambulance there were 2 BOOTMAKERS and expect that the 1st West Lancashire Field Ambulance would have the same/similar.

So far I have not been able to find any other army record to confirm the Chas Fred of 1st West Lancs Field Ambulance is my great grandfather. Searches via FOLD3, National Archives & Forces War Records all come back to the same card (https://www.fold3.com/image/325310253?terms=chas,fred,dawson). I am aware that many military documents were destroyed in a fire during WWII and looking into what is left on microfilm at the National Archives at Kew.

I can see from this card that on 16.09.18 Chas/Charles was ‘Trans to Class “P” T TF’ (due to sickness/injury?). This Class “P” T TF matched up with the description of a Pte Reginald Macintyre SCOTT of RAMC found on the internet. http://www.ramc-ww1.com/profile.php?cPath=274_280_37&profile_id=7089&osCsid=nvulbd42threuh9n4g6kdgqhr2
Also, from the description of Pte SCOTT, once back in England he was hospitalised, was then well enough to have a period of leave and later on disembodied.

 

MY great grandfather was allowed home/had leave on 8th March 1918 as he is witness on his daughter’s (my great aunt Winifred) death certificate. Also, there was another date that Charles was at home and that was to conceive Winifred in the first place, around May 1916 (I do realise there could have been another explanation for Wini’s conception (there was a war on) but at the mo I going with Charles returned home).

QUESTIONS
Can anyone decipher ‘2a1 Cprat Awa ?

After ‘Action taken’ what does List RAMC/698 relate to? I found a list for RAMC/698 via google & National Archive search but it related to WWII.

As ‘discharge’ is crossed out I expect the date 16.09.18 is for the transfer, so is the fact that he has no date for discharge mean he simply ended the war to 11.11.18?

Within The Long, Long,Trail list of Field ambulance -  war history - this is written…
    87th. - West Lancs Division Aug 14 – Oct 15 then 29th Division Jan 15 – Nov 18.  -  Designated 1/1st West Lancs    
So as Chas enlisted in Sept 14, a month later, will he have been part of the 2/1st?

Looking forward to you reply(s).
Gail

Attached:

Chas Fred Dawson of RAMC 1st West Lancashire Field Ambulance Medal Card
Photo of my great grandfather Charles Frederick Dawson, in 1931 (54yrs) Master Boot/shoe maker/repairer (poorly edited as someone was stood in front of him)

[mancpal]

Cprat  Awa I suspect is Grat Awa (Gratuity awarded) which may be related to his discharge,

 

Simon

Edited 15 October , 2020 by mancpal

[mancpal]

Gail,

if you google 'ww1 class P discharge' you will find an explanation which may help with the 'grat Awa' part. The long long trail linked at the top of the page may  also assist you,

 

Simon

[jay dubaya]

Gail, the image is that of an index card for Silver War Badges, the ledger contains the same information you can see already. I can’t find him on the Medal Rolls nor Medal Index Cards which suggests he didn’t serve overseas. I’m guessing there’s no detail on the death certificate for your great aunt? 
 

J

[RussT]

36 minutes ago, Gail O said:

what does List RAMC/698 relate to?

 

It relates to the Silver War Badge Roll.

 

This shows that this man was 32 years old when he was discharged on 16/09/1918.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[The Inspector]

Hi Gail,

The SWB list also shows his SWB number, B8651. This will be on the reverse. SWB details..https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections/86/silver-war-badge-list-1914-1918

Regards Barry.

[TEW]

SWB roll says he served abroad. His 6 digit number matches with territorial renumbering in 1917 to 1/WLFA.

 

Probably went abroad with a 4 digit number which his medals will be under. Not uncommon to find MICs that don't give all numbers served under.

 

He held the 6 digit number when he was transferred in 1918. His given unit is a 'serving abroad' one.

 

There is a MIC to a Charles F Dawson #1624 RAMC but I don't think it's him.

 

2ai. This is paragraph 2 (a) (i) of AO 265 dated 10/8/17, the i bit means;

 

after service overseas in the armed Forces of the Crown etc..... From LLT.

TEW 

 

[IPT]

Possibly 1624, went to Egypt 21/3/1915.

 

Compare 1630 William Wear, who became 337233.

[TEW]

Didn't spot Wear but was put of by 1624's discharge date in 1919. Although that could be his eventual discharge after his transfer to Class P in 1918?

 

Number tallying with Wear certainly seems a good fit.

 

Any WL RAMC units served in Egypt?

TEW

[Gail O]

Thank you so much for your replies. A lot to take in at this late hour. I had suspected the Medal Card may not be my Great Grandfather. So thank you all for you expert advice. I understand this more clearly in the morning.

Gail

 

[TEW]

Seems 1st WLFA did serve in Egypt.

TEW

[Gail O]

On 15/10/2020 at 20:57, RussT said:

 

It relates to the Silver War Badge Roll.

 

This shows that this man was 32 years old when he was discharged on 16/09/1918.

 

Regards

 

Russ

Hello Russ,
Thank you for this information.
Via a google search (IMW https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/silver-war-badge-and-kings-certificate-of-discharge) I can see that the Silver Badge Roll is held at the National Archives, Kew and can be viewed digitised via subscription at Ancestry & Find My Past. I recently, stopped (paused) my subscription to Ancestry in order to concentrate on the Family's War Records and so have subscribed to FOLD3 & Forces War Records . 
Without being able to view the 'Roll' at the mo' I am hoping you can explain a little further how the 'age on discharge' is catagories in the SWB Roll.
In order to rule out the record of Chas Fred/RAMC-W Lancs FA being my great grandfather I need to be as sure as possible.
Thanks ever so.
Gail
 

[PRC]

On 15/10/2020 at 20:18, Gail O said:

MY great grandfather was allowed home/had leave on 8th March 1918 as he is witness on his daughter’s (my great aunt Winifred) death certificate.

 

On 15/10/2020 at 20:51, jay dubaya said:

I’m guessing there’s no detail on the death certificate for your great aunt? 

 

So if it was his daughter, and assuming the couple weren't estranged, you should effectively have a home address for him at that point in time. And given that he wasn't transferred to Class P until September 1918 he would in theory appear on at least the first 1918 Absent Voter List, (some areas only had one). That would apply even if he was stationed elsewhere in the UK. See here for how the Absent Voters List can help track down a mans' unit along with a partial list of what's known to be available.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

May be one route to ruling the RAMC man in or out as a match for your great grandfather.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Gail O]

On 15/10/2020 at 23:29, TEW said:

Didn't spot Wear but was put of by 1624's discharge date in 1919. Although that could be his eventual discharge after his transfer to Class P in 1918?

 

Number tallying with Wear certainly seems a good fit.

 

Any WL RAMC units served in Egypt?

TEW

Hello TEW,
I had saved MIC of Charles F Dawson #1624 (also served in Egypt) to my desk top as another possible but yet to research which regiment(s) (connection to Lancashire?). However, I can see that '1624's rank was changed to Acting Sergeant (I've read blog/forums decribe Boot/shoe repairers ranks as sergeants?). 'Trans to class P' is not written on this MIC.

I expect the movement of my great grandfather should be that he had a transfer date (to England) before Wini's death and then was allowed leave at this time. My mother said that he returned from the war with respiratory problems and this condition continued till his death. 
I don't know how likely it would be him returning to work in his Boot/shoe repair shop or whether he would be sent to an Army boot factory.
Thank you again for your help with the deciphering.
Gail

[Gail O]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

 

So if it was his daughter, and assuming the couple weren't estranged, you should effectively have a home address for him at that point in time. And given that he wasn't transferred to Class P until September 1918 he would in theory appear on at least the first 1918 Absent Voter List, (some areas only had one). That would apply even if he was stationed elsewhere in the UK. See here for how the Absent Voters List can help track down a mans' unit along with a partial list of what's known to be available.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

May be one route to ruling the RAMC man in or out as a match for your great grandfather.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Hello Peter,
I had a look for the digitised absent voters list which covered Blackpool for 1920 or 1921 only. Then the nearest lancashire town for 1918 was St.Helens, if I remember rightly.
I think I then ruled out looking through this list as the election was after March, but will double check my research.
I have located Wini's death cert and Charles's occupation is Bootmaker (Journeyman).
Thank you for your help.
Gail
 

[Gail O]

On 15/10/2020 at 22:13, The Inspector said:

Hi Gail,

The SWB list also shows his SWB number, B8651. This will be on the reverse. SWB details..https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections/86/silver-war-badge-list-1914-1918

Regards Barry.

Hello Barry,
Thank you for this. I must not be using Forces War Records search areas correctly because I could only find a 11 Charles Dawson's in the Silver War Badge list and neither are attached to a Lancashire regiment. I have made an enquiry via FWR message and will have another look at the website.
Gail

[Gail O]

On 15/10/2020 at 20:50, mancpal said:

Gail,

if you google 'ww1 class P discharge' you will find an explanation which may help with the 'grat Awa' part. The long long trail linked at the top of the page may  also assist you,

 

Simon

Hello Simon,

Thank you for the 'Trans to Class P' pointers. I'm getting the hang of the codes and particularly my way around the GreatWarForum.
Gail

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, Gail O said:

I have located Wini's death cert and Charles's occupation is Bootmaker (Journeyman).

 

If he was serving at that point then I would have expected that to have been referenced, usually with his civilian trade listed in brackets. As sadly she was only 13 months old, have you checked out her fathers' occupation on her birth certificate? By the start of 1917 the bulk of conscription had been done, now it was a question of regrading \reassessing men previously found unfit for service, or weeding men out of war work \ revisiting exemptions, (plus of course the cohort of young men turning 18).

 

If the birth certificate also doesn't reference him serving then looking more likely that if he served at all, he was neither of the two individuals identified from the MiC's.

 

BTW the first RAMC men has a service number from the block allocated to the 1st West Lancashire Field Ambulance as part of the general Territorial Force renumbering at the start of 1917. As the block started from 337001 I would have thought it likely that 337230 was already with them at that point, rather than a new recruit or transferee who joined later.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-royal-army-medical-corps-in-1917/

As he would have had a previous number and there is no MiC for service medals for 337230 that raises the possibility that 1624 & 337230 could be one and the same individual.

 

The MiC for 1624 shows him first landing in Theatre of War number 3 - which is Egypt. I repeatedly come across a problem with members of the Medical Corps and the Engineers that the clerk writing out the card in late 1918\early 1919, use this code for men who are known to have gone to Gallipoli, not even stopping off at Alexandria. However it made no difference to the medals issued and I suspect it wasn't worth the effort of digging too deeply.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[TEW]

Just to answer a few things.

 

It's not unusual to have two separate medal cards. The first one posted up is what I would call a discharge card rather than a silver war badge card. In this case it does refer to a SWB as well but not all these types of card do. As it's missing the medal information that means usually either 'No overseas service' or there's another card, hence the 1624 card.  I did dismiss it at first due to the discharge date not matching the transfer date of card #1 but as they are different things I don't think that's relevant. Again, where there's two cards you can easily have different information.

 

Next. SWB ROLLS. The sheet has a column for Age at discharge date, his is given as 32. I note he should be nearly 10 years older. It could be a simple mistake, or he pretended to be younger or it's the wrong man.

 

You mention looking for SWB records by Lancashire Regiment plus another mention of 1624's connection to a Lancashire Regiment. Both cards are for a Royal Army Medical Corps man who happened to be with a West Lancs. RAMC unit. There is no Lancashire Regiment connection. It's actually quite difficult to work out units for RAMC men although your card#1 gives a unit, 1624's doesn't.

 

It seems from the posts so far that it's increasingly probable that the two cards are for the same man. The age problem is the only hurdle.

 

Lastly something for PRC. There was a topic sometime ago possibly by Charlie? regarding dates of entry and 15 Stars for RAMC men entering Egypt/Gallipoli. I found an MIC for a man who arrived in a theatre of war before he had enlisted! Others had dates of entry that didn't tally with service record dates. My conclusion...a clerk lost the disembarkation records and one was fabricated?

TEW

Edited 18 October , 2020 by TEW

[TEW]

Topic I mentioned not by Charlie but a lot of the digging was. 2nd to last post on this page. Can't seem to paste link direct to post any more.

TEW

Edited 18 October , 2020 by TEW

[kenf48]

20 hours ago, TEW said:

Next. SWB ROLLS. The sheet has a column for Age at discharge date, his is given as 32. I note he should be nearly 10 years older. It could be a simple mistake, or he pretended to be younger or it's the wrong man.

 

I think we will find it is not a mistake but the wrong man.

 

There are a couple of men named Charles Frederick Dawson, in Lancashire much closer in age to that given on the SWB Roll.  The WLFA was headquartered in Liverpool along with other units of the West Lancashire Division (T.F.). In September 1914 recruitment was still fairly local.  Blackburn was home to the 4th East Lancashire Regiment (T.F.) (The East Lancashire Division was headquartered in Manchester.)

 

I also think we can be satisfied both cards posted above refer to the same man

There is a service record for a 337225 1st West Lancashire Field Ambulance. He enlisted on the 3rd September 1914 and was allocated the number 1618, so assuming (recklessly) no casualties between the renumbering the sequence would run
1618  337225
1619  337226
1620  337227
1621  337228 Bethel enlisted 2.09.194 (SWB)
1622  337229
1623  337230
1624  337231

but

1621 was allocated to a Pte Kirwan who transferred to the RASC in 1915 prior to the renumbering

The Medal Roll shows 1622 Bethel (337228)

so 1623 337229

and 1624 renumbered 337230

The 1st WLFA landed in Egypt on the 31st March 1915, having sailed from Avonmouth on the SS Magueritte(?) on the 18th before embarking to Mudros and service at Gallipoli, landing on the peninsular on the 25th April.

After evacuation they accompanied the rest of the 29th Division to the Western Front.

 

I am also struggling with the fact there is no mention of Army Service on the child's death certificate whist noting that the man referred to suffered from the effects of the war.

 

 

[TEW]

From The Genealogist.

 

For Charles Frederick Dawson, no hits at all.

 

For Charles F Dawson there are 3 MICs. No casualty list entries. 

 

For Charles Dawson there are 78 MICs (possibly some duplications). No casualty list entries.

 

For plain C F Dawson there are 3 MICs and 1 CL entry

 

For C Dawson it's 9 MICs & 44 on CL.

 

One has to wonder why he is at home in March 1918. Leave is possible as is recovering from a wound or the home service only option. This is apart from the no mention of service on the death cert.

 

if he was home recovering from injury in March 18 his casualty list entry would only show up for Aug 17 - Feb 18.

 

With the OP's candidate not looking good it's a needle in a haystack task.

 

I'm seeing a handful of service records on FMP for Charles Dawson, Lancashire, b1875.

TEW

[Gail O]

On 18/10/2020 at 23:44, TEW said:

Just to answer a few things.

 

It's not unusual to have two separate medal cards. The first one posted up is what I would call a discharge card rather than a silver war badge card. In this case it does refer to a SWB as well but not all these types of card do. As it's missing the medal information that means usually either 'No overseas service' or there's another card, hence the 1624 card.  I did dismiss it at first due to the discharge date not matching the transfer date of card #1 but as they are different things I don't think that's relevant. Again, where there's two cards you can easily have different information.

 

Next. SWB ROLLS. The sheet has a column for Age at discharge date, his is given as 32. I note he should be nearly 10 years older. It could be a simple mistake, or he pretended to be younger or it's the wrong man.

 

You mention looking for SWB records by Lancashire Regiment plus another mention of 1624's connection to a Lancashire Regiment. Both cards are for a Royal Army Medical Corps man who happened to be with a West Lancs. RAMC unit. There is no Lancashire Regiment connection. It's actually quite difficult to work out units for RAMC men although your card#1 gives a unit, 1624's doesn't.

 

It seems from the posts so far that it's increasingly probable that the two cards are for the same man. The age problem is the only hurdle.

 

Lastly something for PRC. There was a topic sometime ago possibly by Charlie? regarding dates of entry and 15 Stars for RAMC men entering Egypt/Gallipoli. I found an MIC for a man who arrived in a theatre of war before he had enlisted! Others had dates of entry that didn't tally with service record dates. My conclusion...a clerk lost the disembarkation records and one was fabricated?

TEW

 

On 19/10/2020 at 21:17, kenf48 said:

 

I think we will find it is not a mistake but the wrong man.

 

There are a couple of men named Charles Frederick Dawson, in Lancashire much closer in age to that given on the SWB Roll.  The WLFA was headquartered in Liverpool along with other units of the West Lancashire Division (T.F.). In September 1914 recruitment was still fairly local.  Blackburn was home to the 4th East Lancashire Regiment (T.F.) (The East Lancashire Division was headquartered in Manchester.)

 

I also think we can be satisfied both cards posted above refer to the same man

There is a service record for a 337225 1st West Lancashire Field Ambulance. He enlisted on the 3rd September 1914 and was allocated the number 1618, so assuming (recklessly) no casualties between the renumbering the sequence would run
1618  337225
1619  337226
1620  337227
1621  337228 Bethel enlisted 2.09.194 (SWB)
1622  337229
1623  337230
1624  337231

but

1621 was allocated to a Pte Kirwan who transferred to the RASC in 1915 prior to the renumbering

The Medal Roll shows 1622 Bethel (337228)

so 1623 337229

and 1624 renumbered 337230

The 1st WLFA landed in Egypt on the 31st March 1915, having sailed from Avonmouth on the SS Magueritte(?) on the 18th before embarking to Mudros and service at Gallipoli, landing on the peninsular on the 25th April.

After evacuation they accompanied the rest of the 29th Division to the Western Front.

 

I am also struggling with the fact there is no mention of Army Service on the child's death certificate whist noting that the man referred to suffered from the effects of the war.

 

 

Thanks for explaining the recruitment proximity and renumbering very clearly. Charles was born and raised in Blackburn but in Blackpool from 1900-ish.
Winifred's birth certificate has Charles occupation of Boot Repairer and does not mention any army service!
Gail

[Gail O]

On 20/10/2020 at 12:56, TEW said:

From The Genealogist.

 

For Charles Frederick Dawson, no hits at all.

 

For Charles F Dawson there are 3 MICs. No casualty list entries. 

 

For Charles Dawson there are 78 MICs (possibly some duplications). No casualty list entries.

 

For plain C F Dawson there are 3 MICs and 1 CL entry

 

For C Dawson it's 9 MICs & 44 on CL.

 

One has to wonder why he is at home in March 1918. Leave is possible as is recovering from a wound or the home service only option. This is apart from the no mention of service on the death cert.

 

if he was home recovering from injury in March 18 his casualty list entry would only show up for Aug 17 - Feb 18.

 

With the OP's candidate not looking good it's a needle in a haystack task.

 

I'm seeing a handful of service records on FMP for Charles Dawson, Lancashire, b1875.

TEW

TEW
So it is looking highly unlikely that Charles F Dawson 1624/337230 in my GGF. Not only his age at discharge via the SWB list, two unmentioned ‘leave’ periods and the birth/death certificates not mentioning army service (at least from March 1918 onwards). However, I have learnt an awful lot to carry me through any future digging. If my GGF did enlist in 1914 it looks like he had a very short service and was back home by May 1916. I can start with your list of possibles and rule them out as I go.

I am still reading up around the areas of advice that each expert has helped me with and there is still much to learn from the forum.

Thank you to everyone, TEW, RussT, Jay Dubaya, Kenf48, PRC, The inspector, IPT & Mancpal.
Stay safe.
Gail

[clk]

Hi Gail,

 

59 minutes ago, Gail O said:

So it is looking highly unlikely that Charles F Dawson 1624/337230 in my GGF.

 

Fold3 has a pension index card for 337230 Dawson (link). Does the address help to rule him in/out?

Image sourced from Fold3

 

Regards

Chris