14th Yorks & Lancs, 2/7th West Yorks, 1/5th Devons

[james drury]

His all, 

 

Quick question. Is there any way to establish a rough date when a man may have joined the 14th York & Lancs. 

 

The man I have was in the  14th Yorks & Lancs then 2/7th West Yorks then 1/5th Devons.

Have worked back : 

He was missing wounded presumed killed on the 19/20th July 1918 with the 1/5th Devons.

 

The  1/5th Devons arrived in France from Egypt on the 1st June 1918 heading to the front joining  185 Brigade 62nd Division (West Riding) on the 6th June.

The 2/7th West Yorks were part of the same 185 Brigade and were Disbanded on the 16th June 1918 with the men joining other units and cadre returning to England ( none noted joining 1/5th Devons in the war diary)  

I made the assumption ( may be wrongly) that he transferred across from the 2/7th to the 1/5th sometime between the 6th and 16th June.

 

before he was in the 2/7th West Yorks he was in the 14th Yorks Lancs. no 31551 - just wondered if there was any way to establish when he joined the 14th. 

I know the 14th were in Egypt from December 1915 to March 1916.

 

Any tips much appreciated. 

 

Once again many thanks.  

 

[RussT]

Service records are showing that men with similar Y&L service numbers were previously 3/5th North Staffordshire TF Regiment men who were transferred to the Y&L on 13/10/1916 upon arrival in France.

 

This would also account for the fact that Wallis was born and enlisted in Burton, Staffs.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[james drury]

Hi Russ, 

 

...... you read my mind, was just checking out the service records of those with numbers around his, and yes explains why he would be in the 14th Y&L when from Staffordshire.  they say it was a compulsory transfer to the 5th reserve Battalion Y&L on most of their records  then to other units. 

 

thank you :-)

[RussT]

Yep, you've got it.

 

Because we don't know his N. Staffs number, we can't do a similar trick to find when he enlisted with them.

 

But we can use his War Gratuity to do that - it was £12 (Type 2), which by my reckoning means he enlisted in June 1916.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[james drury]

yes - I'm just checking a few of the service records and have several for  the 5/6/9th June 1916 so far so looks likely early June 

[RussT]

If you look at the medal roll for Y&L men with numbers close to that for Wallis, you will notice that the men with the numbers 31461 to 31554 are in surname alphabetical order (31461 Addison to 31554 Yates) - so it looks like a draft, circa 93 strong, being posted to France from the 5th (Res) Bn N Staffs but who were then transferred to the Y&L upon their arrival

 

Regards

 

Russ

[james drury]

thank you :-) - very much appreciated.

 

yes have  fund a few service records all within a few numbers off his all with  the same dates for different movements and transfers so can pin down with a relative amount of certainty his movement. 

 

they all were mobilised in early June 1916

they all were with c company 3/5th north staff

they all embarked for France on the 26.9.16

they were all transferred to 5th bttn Y&L then all to various service Bttns in France on the 13.10.16, those to the  14 Y&L arriving with at the unit on the 16.10.16

found in the the 14 Y&L diary on the 16.10.16 that 94 reinforcements arrived on that day 

 

have also found a several  service records with service numbers either side of his 2/7 West York number that point to him transferring to them  on the 17.2.18 

 

love putting a story together .... thanks again :-)

 

 

 

[james drury]

Found an interesting snippet in the diary of the 14th Y&L they were reorganised around the 17th February which would explain a transfer to the 2/7th West Yorks.

 

It threw up the possibility he may have by this point been a bandsman.... may be 

 

 

 

 

 

[RussT]

21 hours ago, james drury said:

found in the the 14 Y&L diary on the 16.10.16 that 94 reinforcements arrived on that day

 

Just to say I made a silly error in the post I made just before yours when I quoted the draft as being 93 strong. The number range I gave of course equates to 94 men -matching exactly the 94 quoted in the 14th Bn Y&L War Diary - and the medal roll for those men in the quoted number range shows that they all went to the 14th Bn Y&L.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

 

[RussT]

This group of 94 men make an "interesting" case study, illustrating how it can be difficult sometimes in re-constructing a solder's service.

 

As noted above, the medal roll shows that the 94 men in this Y&L number range span from 31461 Addison to 31554 Yates.

 

And as already noted they were all evidently transferred from the 3/5th Bn North Staffordshire Regiment (NSR) to the 14th Bn Y&L after their arrival France.

 

The first point to note is that there are 35 missing numbers in the above 94 Y&L number range on the medal roll. We know the reason why - like Wallis the "missing" men would have been subsequently transferred to other Regiments/Corps, and so they should be recorded on the medal rolls of those other units.

 

Of the 59 men that do appear on this Y&L medal roll, three of them (31502 Simnet, 31509 Swan & 31533 Thompson) actually record their previous NSR service numbers (6458, 6764 & 6226 respectively). This means that the BWM & VM medals for these 3 men would be inscribed with their NSR service details whereas the remaining 56 men would have their medals inscribed with their Y&L service details. Why the compilers of this Y&L medal roll made that difference remains a mystery. I suspect there is no reason - rather it is just an element in the vagaries of the medal roll compiling "system".

 

So what about the missing 35 Y&L numbers on this roll? Well, you can search the MICs for these missing numbers and they can be found - except 8 (or at least I couldn't find 8 of them - 31465, 31471, 31476, 31492, 31495, 31505, 31516, 31530). Those that could be found were on a wide variety of other Regiment/Corps medal rolls.

 

Of the 27 that could be found, I noted that 14 had their NSR numbers quoted first - meaning their medals would be inscribed with those NSR details whereas the other 13 would have their medals inscribed with their Y&L service details.

 

Of the 8 numbers missing entirely, I managed to track down just 2 by searching for their Y&L numbers in service records. One is William Penney who evidently had the Y&L number 31492 but whose MIC/Medal roll only shows his NSR (6325) and Labour Corps (437542) numbers. The other is James Thomas Thornhill who had the Y&L number 31530 but whose MIC/medal roll only shows his NSR (5646) and Military Foot Police (P12123) numbers. So these 2 men would have their medals inscribed with their NSR details - but that they served with Y&L would be completely lost if it wasn't for this study. Who the remaining 6 missing men were in this group of 94 men is, however, perhaps lost forever.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

[james drury]

wow ! 

 

amazing amount of info to digest.

 

thank you for taking the time !!