7th Hussars at start of The Great War

[Raypalmer]

Hi

 

I'm hoping someone might be able to explain the records of an ancestor, who joined the Royal North Devon Hussars, which was I believe part of (or was assimilated into) the 7th (Queen's Own) Hussars. I have his record, and have been able to follow his movements in India and South Africa between enlistment and approx 1910. But then it becomes rather confusing. The timeline as it appears in his record is as follows:

 

Dec 1905 - Aug 1915: In the UK.

1905: Awarded long service & good conduct gratuities.

Jun 1907: Extended his period of service up to the age of 50.

1910: Stripping Arms training, Enfield (presumably the Royal Enfield Rifles factory at Enfield)

1910: Living in Torrington, Devon, (birth of son)

1911: Promoted to Acting Regimental Sergeant Major

1911: Living in Devon. Occupation: Regimental Sergeant Major. (census)

Jan 1915: Promoted to Warrant Officer Class 2, acting Class 1.

Jul 1915: Discharged. Intended occupation Milkman. Intended address: Barnstaple.

Aug 1915: Record shows “agreeable to take his discharge from the Regular Forces on 28 Aug 1915 on condition that he is granted a Commission as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 3/1st Royal Devon Hussars”.

 

So I'm confused about what happened between 1910 and 1915. Would he have had any role in the 1914-18 war? Is there anything to indicate whether he was given the commission he apparently wanted? Were soldiers able to 'bargain' like this? Would such a commission have been in some way 'honorary'?

 

His record is at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1114/images/miuk1914a_084594-00638?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=dbfbefa86c35e03b24f75150cec2c709&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ZmD3203&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=3333842

 

The Regiment's activities are at https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishcavalry/7thhussars.htm

 

Grateful for any help. Many thanks

 

Ray

[charlie962]

17 minutes ago, Raypalmer said:

Is there anything to indicate whether he was given the commission he apparently wanted? Were soldiers able to 'bargain' like this? Would such a commission have been in some way 'honorary'?

It was normal to be discharged from the ranks before being appointed to a commission. He was obviously keen to ensure that the promise of a commision took place !

 

Is this your ancestor , (courtesy FindmyPast)

 

 

[charlie962]

First name(s)	Francis Ernest
Last name	Griffin
Rank	2Nd Lieutenant
Regiment	Royal North Devon Yeomanry
Year	1886-1919
Archive	The National Archives
Archive reference	WO 374/29356
Series	WO 374
Series description	Wo 374 - Officers' Services, First World War, Personal Files

[charlie962]

His MIC is here on Ancestry (badly indexed. He ended up Captain 310 Home Service Coy, Labour Corps

[Raypalmer]

Charlie, thank you so much. I clearly didn't look hard enough!

[Raypalmer]

It's me again. I'm still trying to decipher and understand some of the notations on my man's service record, and I am attaching the relevant extracts for some of them. I have tried looking up army abbreviations, but without success.

 

1.  What was a "Lance Sergeant"? I've never heard of the rank before. (attached)

2.  What are "SI of M", "SP Class 1(7)", and "SSI of M"? (attached) 

3.  He was posted to Permanent Staff of North Devon Yeomanry, and seems to have gone in and out of the Yeomanry in ensuing years. What does this mean? (attached)

4.  When I see  "1/1 North Devons ....." and "3/1 North Devons .....", what are those reference numbers, and how do they relate to the fact that he was in the 7th Hussars? Were they Divisions / Battalions perhaps?

5.  What was the Territorial Force?

6.  His medal card suggests that he was at Gallipoli in October 1918, but there is no mention of this on his service record, on which the latest entry was 28 August 1915. I have found further entries in the London Gazette and in the press, but nothing that points to Gallipoli. In 1917 he had been gazetted to the Royal Dorsets and later the Royal Berks, but other than London Gazette and press records I can find nothing. I think the "main action" in Gallipoli was over by October 1918.

 

Please forgive my evident ignorance here, but I'd be grateful for any pointers from anybody that might help.

 

Many thanks. 

 

Ray

 

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

6.  His medal card suggests that he was at Gallipoli in October 1918, but there is no mention of this on his service record, on which the latest entry was 28 August 1915. I have found further entries in the London Gazette and in the press, but nothing that points to Gallipoli. In 1917 he had been gazetted to the Royal Dorsets and later the Royal Berks, but other than London Gazette and press records I can find nothing. I think the "main action" in Gallipoli was over by October 1918.

Gallipoli was 1915. Your man was commissioned in Aug 1915 and as an officer he went to Gallipoli in Sept 1915. The Peninsula was evacuated in December 1915. Your man had already left and as the newsclipping shows, was recuperating back in UK in Dec 1915.

Edited 19 October , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

2.  What are "SI of M", "SP Class 1(7)", and "SSI of M"? (attached) 

The appointment was Sergeant Instructor of Musketry; then Staff Sgt Instructor of Musketry.

6 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

5.  What was the Territorial Force?

Try googling !!

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

how do they relate to the fact that he was in the 7th Hussars?

I haven't looked at his service record but where did you get '7th Hussars ' from ?

6 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

4.  When I see  "1/1 North Devons ....." and "3/1 North Devons .....", what are those reference numbers, and how do they relate to the fact that he was in the 7th Hussars? Were they Divisions / Battalions perhaps?

Battalions

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

1.  What was a "Lance Sergeant"? I've never heard of the rank before. (attached

google gives this-  Lance-sergeant in the armies of the Commonwealth was an appointment given to a corporal so they could fill a post usually held by a sergeant

6 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

"SP Class 1(7)"

SP = Special(ist) Pay, I suggest but I am not familiar with the classes within this.

[charlie962]

OK I see his service record and 7th Hussars. Did you note who had signed the top right of his Conduct sheet !!

 

Courtesy Ancestry:

oops- won't upload ??

 

 

So his OR service was with the 7th Hussars from 1886 until 1915 but he was "attached" to the Permanent Staff of the North Devon Yeomanry from 1907 onwards.

Edited 19 October , 2020 by charlie962

[Raypalmer]

Thanks again for all those responses. 

 

Re Territorial Force - well I did google it, but was confused because in 1907 (aged 38) he extended his service to age 50 and was assigned to permanent staff of the Devons, but his first assignment to the Territorial Force was in 1915, when he was 46. Seemingly all of his service thereafter was in the Territorial Force, including his brief venture into Gallipoli. 

 

Re Haig - yes, I had spotted the name on the Conduct Sheet. I did verify that it was the D Haig, and found him in same regiment, same time, and near enough the same place thanks to a photo of Haig and his polo team at Secunderabad. I think India was fairly quiet in the late 1880s, and there was no doubt plenty of time for polo. Haig played for his country, I believe.

 

Re Gallipoli - my mistake, I misread the year on the medal card. As you say my man wasn't there for long, and the description in the newspaper of "sick leave" suggests he was ill rather than wounded. 

 

His service record seems to stop in August 1915, and all later info comes from the Gazette and the press. Together, they tell me he was assigned to the Royal Berks in Feb 1917 and (within days) to the Dorsets, then in May 1917 back to the Royal Berks, then back to the Royal North Devons in 1919 until he retired in 1921. Is it likely that I might find a separate service record covering those last six years (if the Luftwaffe didn't destroy them)?

 

Appreciate your help (and patience!)

 

Ray

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, Raypalmer said:

Is it likely that I might find a separate service record covering those last six years

I gave you the link to National Archives Officers Service File above. But you will have difficulty under Covid getting access !

[Raypalmer]

Thanks, my mistake again - I thought that was the link to the medal cards! Sorry! 

[PRC]

9 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

He was posted to Permanent Staff of North Devon Yeomanry, and seems to have gone in and out of the Yeomanry in ensuing years. What does this mean? (attached)

4.  When I see  "1/1 North Devons ....." and "3/1 North Devons .....", what are those reference numbers, and how do they relate to the fact that he was in the 7th Hussars? Were they Divisions / Battalions perhaps?

5.  What was the Territorial Force?

 

Up until 1907 as well as the Regular Army, there was usually at least one Militia and Yeomanry unit for each County, paid for by a mixture of the county ratepayers amd deep-pocketed individuals. There were reponsible for the defence of the County in the face of invasion and could be called upon in the event of civil unrest. Members were mostly part-timers and nominally they reported to the Lord-Lieutenant of the County. Equipment procurement, uniform and drill were all subject to local arrangements, although since the Childers Army Reforms of 1881 the Militia Battalions were part of the County Regiment structure.

 

In parallel there had been for sometime raging debates about how best to provide the large reserve that would needed to fight in a war against another modern army. The lessons of the Boer War did a great deal to focus minds, with the opinions in the Army coalescing around the option of National Service. There are lots of things that you can read about the debates, but ultimately the decision was to fully integrate the Militia and Yeomanry into a new Territorial Force from 1908, with weaponry, drills, tactics, uniforms, to be standardised with the Army and paid for by the War Office, and a small cadre of regulars - senior NCO's and usually an officer to act as adjutant, were seconded to assist with this. This was when your man would have been posted to the North Devon Yeomanry. He would have taken up local residence. If he was an Instructor of Musketry you may find reference to him in local newspapers of the period in connection with shooting competitons - inter unit ones were quite popular.

 

The obligations for the new Territorial Force men were much higher than for the Militia and Yeomanry they replaced  -  - this included defence of the UK rather than just the home county - and many chose not to join the new Force. Recruitment also didn't come up to the levels hoped for, so most TF units were seriously understrength by the time of the outbreak of the war. It should be noted that a Territorial Force soldier could opt to make themselves eligible for Imperial Defence, but that would only see them mobilised in the event of war - helpful for another Boer War, but not so useful for Belgium and France.

 

However a rush of recruits in the opening months of the war saw them fill out. In September 1914 those who had already joined up were given the option to sign up for overseas service. Those who signed up went in a first line unit, the 1/1st while those that remained UK service only went into the second line 2/1st.

 

To provide training for new recruits and provide a pool of replacements for the 1/1st, a third line unit was created, the 3/1st.

see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-north-devon-yeomanry-hussars/

 

I had cause to investigate a Sergeant of the 7th Dragoon Guards who similarly was posted to the (Kings Own) Norfolk Yeomanry in 1908 and quickly became the Regimental Sergeant Major. He too went to Gallipoli, but sadly that is where he met his end. Because he was attached to the Yeomanry, CWGC record him as serving with his Regular Army unit at the time of his death.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/43688219@N00/49904813331/in/dateposted-public/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[Raypalmer]

Peter, that's marvellous, and helps me to understand the many apparent changes and moves he made between 1907 and 1918. Incidentally, I did indeed find him taking part in shooting matches in Devon before the war!

 

Thank you so much.

 

Ray

[Raypalmer]

This is a timeline covering the period I struggle with. I've highlighted where 'Yeomanry' is mentioned. Can I safelyassume that for the whole of this time he was in the Yeomanry, even if it isn't mentioned?

 

Thanks

 

[charlie962]

Ray, I can see you are confused and agree it is difficult to follow partial records. But there seems to me a muddling of events above.

 

I'm pretty sure he was 7th Hussars until he agreed to be discharged from the ranks on 20th Aug 1915. The period 1907 to 1915 also involved attachment to Royal North Devon Yeomanry whilst remaining a 7th Hussar.

 

Then he starts again as a 2nd Lt in the RNDY and goes to Gallipoli Sep 1915. He is no longer a 7th Hussar.

 

I wonder whether some of your dates are not effective dates but notification dates ? Various documents were signed off before 20/8/15 in preparation for his discharge on that date

 

For example

line 1, the date of his appointment as 2nd Lt was not 20th July. There was reference to a recommendation that he be so appointed, letter dated 23rd July.

line 2, the date 29/7/15 is the authority date, not the discharge date.

 

RNDH and RNDY and even RND(H)Y are the same thing. A Yeomanry regiment trained as Hussars, hence the mixture of references.

 

The BWM VM  Medal Roll implies he was RNDY attached Labour Corp.

The 14/15 Star Roll says Gallipoli from 9/15 and the MIC says 10/15. The newspaper clipping says Sep 1915 so I go with the 14/15 Roll (from which the MIC is prepared !) It is all done specifically to confuse you.

 

 

2 hours ago, Raypalmer said:

an I safelyassume that for the whole of this time he was in the Yeomanry, even if it isn't mentioned?

So I think the answer is Yes from 20th Aug 1915 onwards and by 'attachment' before that.

 

Eventually the officer's service file may firm up some points.

 

 

Charlie

[Raypalmer]

Thank you Charlie for your guidance .... and your sympathy!

 

As you suggest, some of the confusion might be self-induced if I haven't properly distinguished dates of notification / publication from the dates things actually happened. Fingers crossed for the record as and when I can look at it.

 

Appreciate your help, as ever.

 

Ray

[charlie962]

Ray-Good luck, I hope I wasn't too brief and thus compounding the confusion.

 

charlie

[Raypalmer]

Not at all, Charlie. It's not just in Tesco that every little helps!

 

Ray

[Raypalmer]

Following all the help I received here, and having now obtained files from the N/Archives, I now know a lot more about my man Frank Ernest Griffin.

But I'm puzzled by this. Retired in 1921, but "disembodied" in 1919. Sounds painful, but what does "disembodied" mean? And was the fact that the date was 11 November significant, or a coincidence?

Thanks

Ray

 

[charlie962]

14 minutes ago, Raypalmer said:

was the fact that the date was 11 November significant, or a coincidence?

Date is 16/11/18 not 11/11.

 

This is my understanding:

Disembodied was a term used for Territorials. When changing from Peacetime to Wartime conditions of service they were Embodied. At the end of the war they and their unit would be Disembodied and returned to peacetime service obligations. So he continued in the 'Peacetime' TF until he retired a couple of years later.

 

Charlie

Edited 28 December , 2020 by charlie962

[Raypalmer]

Sounds very logical when you put it like that, Charlie. Thanks very much. 

 

Ray