2/18th., London Irish Rifles.

[PRC]

 

22 hours ago, Neil S said:

In one of the grave registration documents (on the CWGC website) he is mentioned as killed in action in the battle of the Somme.

 

The Grave Register is a combination of information provided by the family and the information held by the Imperial War Graves Commission, the forerunner of the CWGC. I wouldn't routinely expect the IWGC to be using words like Killed in Action, or Died of Wounds as that was immaterial to their purpose when they were inheriting responsibility for the grave from one of the armed forces.

 

(Source: Commonwealth War Graves Commission).

 

Just as the newspaper The Englishman's Overland Mail, November 10th, 1916 quoted above refers to him "dying in the Big Push" on September 12th, I think what you are seeing is the birth of a family legend, conflating the activities of the 1/18th Battalion who were on the Somme with the activities of the 2/18th, who weren't.

 

As to the manner of his death, short of coming across a personal reminiscense, whether it's in a newspaper or some other publication, then I'm afraid you're not likely to know. There is a long list of ways in which a man can die and be considered 'officially' to have been killed in action and being "at his post" covers a multitude of sins.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 14 October , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[squirrel]

PRC Said: "Just as the newspaper The Englishman's Overland Mail, November 10th, 1916 quoted above refers to him "dying in the Big Push" on September 12th, I think what you are seeing is the birth of a family legend, conflating the activities of the 1/18th Battalion who were on the Somme with the activities of the 2/18th, who weren't."

 

 

The history of the 60th Division by Colonel P H Dalbiac C.B. T.D. first published 1927 George Allen & Unwin - N & MP reprint chapter V

 

This gives no mention or information on 2/18th London on 12th or 13th September 1916 - two trench raids were carried out on the night of 11th September, one by 2/15th (Civil Service Rifles), the other by  2/20th (Blackheath & Woolwich). A number of trench raids were carried out by the Brigades of the Division during September but none are mentioned as having taken place on 13th September and none as having involved the 2/18th (London Irish).

Later in the chapter, it says, "The enemy for their part, were not enterprising as regards raids. During the greater part of the time that the 60th Divison was facing them, beyond the crater conflicts, the Germans seldom showed any desire to come to close quarters, or cross No-Man's-Land for a trench raid".

 

It would seem from this history that the most activity involved crater fighting, when one or other blew a mine and there was the usual struggle to consolidate the crater.

"The mines were blown by the enemy with two objects as a rule: either to destroy our trenches and their garrisons, or in order that the resulting  rims or lips of the crater, formed by the explosions, might serve as observation or sniping posts for enfilading the nearest British trenches. The craters in No-Man's-Land were mostly the result of mines blown by the enemy with the the latter intention." 

 

I have looked at the War Diary of the 1/18th (London Irish) for September just in case Rifleman Vas may have been transferred. The 1/18th moved up to the support area for the attack on High Wood at this time and this says that no casualties were suffered during 11th/12th/13th/14th September.

 

 

Edited 14 October , 2020 by squirrel

[battle of loos]

good morning,

 

here is the Medal Card (Ancestry) :

 

 

tomorrow, weather permitting, I will go to Ecoivres to take a picture of the grave.

 

a few years ago, I found these objects not far from this cemetery :

 

 

they belonged in part to the soldier WATERS Bertram 2/15 London (same Division)

 

 

regards

 

michel

[battle of loos]

Good evening,

 

Here is the image of the tomb:

 

 

 

regardes

 

michel

Edited 19 October , 2020 by battle of loos
picture

[battle of loos]

[squirrel]

Thank you.

[Neil S]

On 14/10/2020 at 01:51, PRC said:

 

 

The Grave Register is a combination of information provided by the family and the information held by the Imperial War Graves Commission, the forerunner of the CWGC. I wouldn't routinely expect the IWGC to be using words like Killed in Action, or Died of Wounds as that was immaterial to their purpose when they were inheriting responsibility for the grave from one of the armed forces.

 

(Source: Commonwealth War Graves Commission).

 

Just as the newspaper The Englishman's Overland Mail, November 10th, 1916 quoted above refers to him "dying in the Big Push" on September 12th, I think what you are seeing is the birth of a family legend, conflating the activities of the 1/18th Battalion who were on the Somme with the activities of the 2/18th, who weren't.

 

As to the manner of his death, short of coming across a personal reminiscense, whether it's in a newspaper or some other publication, then I'm afraid you're not likely to know. There is a long list of ways in which a man can die and be considered 'officially' to have been killed in action and being "at his post" covers a multitude of sins.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

I realised that there were quite a few discrepancies with the correspondence of his commanding officer. Would the 'Big Push' be the assault on High Wood? I find the mention of him dying at his post very curious. Also, it is strange that his commanding officer would get so many details wrong, considering that he was bound to be in the thick of it! I know that it would fairly impossible to find out the exact cause of his death, but on a positive note I am finding out a lot more about him and for that I am grateful. 

[Neil S]

On 14/10/2020 at 16:58, squirrel said:

PRC Said: "Just as the newspaper The Englishman's Overland Mail, November 10th, 1916 quoted above refers to him "dying in the Big Push" on September 12th, I think what you are seeing is the birth of a family legend, conflating the activities of the 1/18th Battalion who were on the Somme with the activities of the 2/18th, who weren't."

 

 

The history of the 60th Division by Colonel P H Dalbiac C.B. T.D. first published 1927 George Allen & Unwin - N & MP reprint chapter V

 

This gives no mention or information on 2/18th London on 12th or 13th September 1916 - two trench raids were carried out on the night of 11th September, one by 2/15th (Civil Service Rifles), the other by  2/20th (Blackheath & Woolwich). A number of trench raids were carried out by the Brigades of the Division during September but none are mentioned as having taken place on 13th September and none as having involved the 2/18th (London Irish).

Later in the chapter, it says, "The enemy for their part, were not enterprising as regards raids. During the greater part of the time that the 60th Divison was facing them, beyond the crater conflicts, the Germans seldom showed any desire to come to close quarters, or cross No-Man's-Land for a trench raid".

 

It would seem from this history that the most activity involved crater fighting, when one or other blew a mine and there was the usual struggle to consolidate the crater.

"The mines were blown by the enemy with two objects as a rule: either to destroy our trenches and their garrisons, or in order that the resulting  rims or lips of the crater, formed by the explosions, might serve as observation or sniping posts for enfilading the nearest British trenches. The craters in No-Man's-Land were mostly the result of mines blown by the enemy with the the latter intention." 

 

I have looked at the War Diary of the 1/18th (London Irish) for September just in case Rifleman Vas may have been transferred. The 1/18th moved up to the support area for the attack on High Wood at this time and this says that no casualties were suffered during 11th/12th/13th/14th September.

 

 

 

Thank you for the additional information. I suspect that he was wounded or killed on the 12th of September, 1916, as no casualties are reported in the war diary on the 13th. Nothing terribly significant seems to have occurred on the 12th or 13th, although the attack on High Wood of course took place on the 15th.

 

On 14/10/2020 at 18:05, battle of loos said:

good morning,

 

here is the Medal Card (Ancestry) :

 

 

tomorrow, weather permitting, I will go to Ecoivres to take a picture of the grave.

 

a few years ago, I found these objects not far from this cemetery :

 

 

they belonged in part to the soldier WATERS Bertram 2/15 London (same Division)

 

 

regards

 

michel

 

Thank you for the medal card. Much appreciated.

[Neil S]

18 hours ago, battle of loos said:

 

I am very grateful that you took the trouble to go there and click the photograph. It is very evocative to see his grave.

[battle of loos]

good morning,

 

2/18th stationed at Mont St Eloi (opposite Vimy) from 29 June 1916 with as area to be held (Neuville St Vaast - Roclincourt).

type of action : mine war - raids.

 

in October 1916, the 60th Division was relieved by the 3rd Canadian Division.

 

regards

 

michel