MFA and MMR - explanation please

[abbrover]

Many thanks SeaJane. Appreciate you getting back to me.

Kindest regards

Pete

[KizmeRD]

5 hours ago, seaJane said:

Yes, I believe so - keeping the fuel load properly trimmed/balanced so that the ship was on an even keel.

That’s certainly where the name ‘trimmer’ derives from, but a major chunk of the work was simply getting coal from the bunkers to the boilers. 
MB

[abbrover]

Thanks again MB

Pete

[seaJane]

25 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

simply getting coal 

Thanks for the clarification!

[MerchantOldSalt]

The word "trim" has several meanings. The one that applies here, and from which the name is derived, is:

"To move a substance from one place to another to achieve a purpose."

A trimmer was the lowest rate in the hierarchy of a British merchant ship's engine room personnel. They were generally young men at the beginning of their lives at sea with prospects for promotion to firemen, or older men who didn't want advancement.

They were not responsible for the "trim", different meaning, of the vessel, nor for preventing a list, they moved coal from bunkers to stokehold in wheel barrows at the direction of the duty engineer. The ships trim, list and stability were the responsibility of the Chief Officer and Deck Officers who would liaise with the engineers as to which bunkers the coal would be taken from to keep both departments happy.

It was a dirty, hot and dangerous job steel boots and steel rimmed wheels on barrows on the steel decks of a moving ship resulted in many injuries

Tony

[abbrover]

4 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

The word "trim" has several meanings. The one that applies here, and from which the name is derived, is:

"To move a substance from one place to another to achieve a purpose."

A trimmer was the lowest rate in the hierarchy of a British merchant ship's engine room personnel. They were generally young men at the beginning of their lives at sea with prospects for promotion to firemen, or older men who didn't want advancement.

They were not responsible for the "trim", different meaning, of the vessel, nor for preventing a list, they moved coal from bunkers to stokehold in wheel barrows at the direction of the duty engineer. The ships trim, list and stability were the responsibility of the Chief Officer and Deck Officers who would liaise with the engineers as to which bunkers the coal would be taken from to keep both departments happy.

It was a dirty, hot and dangerous job steel boots and steel rimmed wheels on barrows on the steel decks of a moving ship resulted in many injuries

Tony

Many thanks for explaining that Tony. Much appreciated.

Pete Threlfall

[FROGSMILE]

Just as SeaJane says, and it was a tough job at sea, especially if a warship in action and constantly responding to the captain’s orders to manoeuvre at speed.

I think that the Wikipedia description is very good:

“A coal trimmer or trimmer is a position within the engineering department of a coal-fired steamship that involves all coal handling duties. Their main task is to ensure that coal is evenly distributed within a ship to ensure it remains trim in the water. Their efforts to control the fore-and-aft angle at which a ship floats is why they are called “trimmers”. Without proper management of the coal bunkers, ships could easily list due to uneven distribution of the coal.”

As well as moving loose coal around to maintain a constantly even trim, they were also the men who were lead participants in the act of ‘coaling’ (refuelling) at British coaling stations distributed across the globe and on which Britains maritime trade and seapower were so dependent.  It’s often overlooked nowadays that many of the coastal garrisons that the Army had been required to secure and maintain had been placed there in order to protect the vital coaling stations that were the lubricant keeping the wheels of commerce functioning across the empire.  That requirement, or mission was for a long time listed as a task for the Army in annual defence estimates.

Edited 19 September by FROGSMILE

[abbrover]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Just as SeaJane says, and it was a tough job at sea, especially if a warship in action and constantly responding to the captain’s orders to manoeuvre at speed.

I think that the Wikipedia description is very good:

“A coal trimmer or trimmer is a position within the engineering department of a coal-fired steamship that involves all coal handling duties. Their main task is to ensure that coal is evenly distributed within a ship to ensure it remains trim in the water. Their efforts to control the fore-and-aft angle at which a ship floats is why they are called “trimmers”. Without proper management of the coal bunkers, ships could easily list due to uneven distribution of the coal.”

As well as moving loose coal around to maintain a constantly even trim, they were also the men who controlled the act of ‘coaling’ (refuelling) at British coal stations distributed across the globe and on which Britains maritime trade and seapower were so dependent.  It’s often overlooked nowadays that many of the coastal garrisons that the Army had been required to secure and maintain had been placed there in order to protect the vital coal stations that were the lubricant keeping the wheels of commerce functioning across the empire.  That requirement, or mission was for a long time listed as a task for the Army in annual defence estimates.

Thanks very much Frogsmile. Superb photographs.

Pete

[abbrover]

My Grandad served - as I have mentioned in a previous post - as a Mercantile Marine Reserve Trimmer on board the Armed Merchant Cruiser H.M.S. Mantua. His older brother - MZ/598 Able Seaman Joseph Threlfall (served as Joseph Milne), Howe Bn., Royal Naval Division - died of wounds on 24th April 1917. At the time of his brothers death, my Grandfather 904093 Trimmer William  Threlfall MMR - was in Cape Town, South Africa.

My question is: would my Grandfather have been notified by telegram to tell him his brother died of wounds; would the Mantua have received a wireless message to inform him; or would it have simply been a case of him being notified on reaching a home port?

Appreciate any input, thank you.

Pete Threlfall

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, abbrover said:

My Grandad served - as I have mentioned in a previous post - as a Mercantile Marine Reserve Trimmer on board the Armed Merchant Cruiser H.M.S. Mantua. His older brother - MZ/598 Able Seaman Joseph Threlfall (served as Joseph Milne), Howe Bn., Royal Naval Division - died of wounds on 24th April 1917. At the time of his brothers death, my Grandfather 904093 Trimmer William  Threlfall MMR - was in Cape Town, South Africa.

My question is: would my Grandfather have been notified by telegram to tell him his brother died of wounds; would the Mantua have received a wireless message to inform him; or would it have simply been a case of him being notified on reaching a home port?

Appreciate any input, thank you.

Pete Threlfall

The only person to be notified of a casualty by the War Office department concerned was the official (declared) next-of-kin (NOK).  This was usually a parent, or spouse, with contact via a formally registered address.  In cases where the NOK was a sibling the same need for a registered address applied.  In the case of a working mariner I imagine he might have given his mercantile marine address, whatever that was, and any communique from the war office would be forwarded to him (his ship) from there, although whether by telegram or some other means, I do not know given the cost, which would have had to be covered by the addressee.

Edited 18 September by FROGSMILE

[abbrover]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The only person to be notified of a casualty by the war office was the official (declared) next-of-kin (NOK).  This was usually a parent, or spouse, with contact via a formally registered address.  In cases where the NOK was a sibling the same need for a registered address applied.  In the case of a working mariner I imagine he might have given his mercantile marine address, whatever that was, and any communique from the war office would be forwarded to him from there, although whether by telegram, I do not know given the cost, which would have had to be covered by the addressee.

Hello again Frogsmile

Once again many thanks for your informative email.

I have, with the greatest respect to you, been a Great War military researcher for over 30 years, and I'm ex-military too, so was aware of the process of the WO sending a  telegram to the next of kin. I can't say I have actually come across this situation like what faced my Grandad (I spent many years researching the service and sinking of H.M.S. Laurentic on 25th January 1917), and I was thinking that if his family wanted to get a message to him, how would that have been done? Sorry for any confusion.

But sincerely, many thanks again.

Kindest regards

Pete

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, abbrover said:

Hello again Frogsmile

Once again many thanks for your informative email.

I have, with the greatest respect to you, been a Great War military researcher for over 30 years, and I'm ex-military too, so was aware of the process of the WO sending a  telegram to the next of kin. I can't say I have actually come across this situation like what faced my Grandad (I spent many years researching the service and sinking of H.M.S. Laurentic on 25th January 1917), and I was thinking that if his family wanted to get a message to him, how would that have been done? Sorry for any confusion.

But sincerely, many thanks again.

Kindest regards

Pete

I’m sorry Pete, of course I did not know your background as you have acknowledged, but in general I tend to write as full an explanation for the benefit of the many who visit this forum without the benefit of your experience and knowledge, and I guess that can occasionally come across as suck eggs.  Of course it’s not meant in that way.  I did genuinely try to consider how that notification from the War Office department (usually an infantry records office) would have reached a mariner at sea.  I know that each mariner carried a work ticket to trace his movement from ship to ship, although I’m not sure when that started.  Presumably once he signed on with a ship for passage those details were recorded.  Ordinary routine mail might be sent overseas, but there wasn’t a British Forces Post Office equivalent, so I imagine that it would take quite a long time to reach him.  In the circumstances only a telegram would reach him relatively quickly, and even then his peripatetic movements would make that far from straightforward.  Perhaps forum member @MerchantOldSalt might be able to advise.  I suspect that notification of family casualties could take some considerable time to be enacted.

Edited 18 September by FROGSMILE

[abbrover]

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m sorry Pete, of course I did not know your background as you have acknowledged, but in general I tend to write as full an explanation for the benefit of the many who visit this forum without the benefit of your experience and knowledge, and I guess that can occasionally come across as suck eggs.  Of course it’s not meant in that way.  I did genuinely try to consider how that notification from the War Office department (usually an infantry records office) would have reached a mariner at sea.  I know that each mariner carried a work ticket to trace his movement from ship to ship, although I’m not sure when that started.  Presumably once he signed on with a ship for passage those details were recorded.  Ordinary routine mail might be sent overseas, but there wasn’t a British Forces Post Office equivalent, so I imagine that it would take quite a long time to reach him.  In the circumstances only a telegram would reach him relatively quickly, and even then his peripatetic movements would make that far from straightforward.  Perhaps forum member @MerchantOldSalt might be able to advise.  I suspect that notification of family casualties could take some considerable time to be enacted.

Hello Frogsmile

Very much appreciate your email, and I sincerely did not mean any offence. Please continue with your replies - as you say, other's might not know what we are talking about.

Thanks again, mate

Pete

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, abbrover said:

Hello Frogsmile

Very much appreciate your email, and I sincerely did not mean any offence. Please continue with your replies - as you say, other's might not know what we are talking about.

Thanks again, mate

Pete

I’m glad to help a little Pete and it’s an interesting topic.

[abbrover]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help a little Pete and it’s an interesting topic.

It is indeed, my friend, and I'm still learning.

Pete

[TDS]

New to this thread, my interest is medal related, I've been offered a WW1 trio to the MFA, I'm finding it hard work to 'find my man' (partly as I'm at sea, with Ltd internet), but would the MFA also be entitled to the Mercantile Marine medal as well?

[TDS]

What would the MFA rank STD stand for, the nearest I can find is 

Seaman Torpedo Defence; its on his 1914-15 Star, his other medals are Asst Sto, which I assume is Assistant Stoker ?

 

I'm totally unfamiliar with MFA rankings.

[KizmeRD]

No such thing as MFA ranks, as those involved simply continued using whatever their mercantile marine job title had been (i.e. same as it had been under civilian peacetime management).

MB

[TDS]

Okay, help me out here then, what is STD, I'm in the Merch, and I can't work it out. 

 

Steward maybe, but I would assume that would be STWD, and his other medals are Assistant Stoker, Steward don't make sense, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[MerchantOldSalt]

STD is the abbreviation used on medals for a Steward

ASST STO is the abbreviation for an Assistant Stoker as you correctly surmise. 

Although these two jobs applied to one man may at first appear strange it is not impossible, merchant seamen changed departments out of necessity to keep employment, but we might be able to help you further if you give us the man's name.

A Merchant Seaman could serve on a Merchant Ship, a Merchant Fleet Auxiliary or in the Mercantile Marine Reserve and could change between any of those throughout the war years, if that person was able to apply for the award of a Mercantile Marine War Medal depended on whether or not they fulfilled the criteria for the award of that medal rather than on which ships they served and how those ships were employed. Before they could apply for the award of the MMWM they first had to fulfil the criteria for the award of the British War medal.

Tony

[KizmeRD]

Stokers (Royal Navy) tended to be referred to a Trimmers or Firemen in the Mercantile Marine. 

Maybe you could take a snap of all what’s engraved on the rim of the medal in question and post it - it might offer a clue about what’s going on here (in any case, a name would certainly be a good starting point).

MB

[TDS]

4 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Stokers (Royal Navy) tended to be referred to a Trimmers or Firemen in the Mercantile Marine. 

Maybe you could take a snap of all what’s engraved on the rim of the medal in question and post it - it might offer a clue about what’s going on here (in any case, a name would certainly be a good starting point).

MB

I'm working on all that, Ill post it up when I think I have the right info.

 

Thanks to everybody that responded. 

 

Dave

15 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

STD is the abbreviation used on medals for a Steward

ASST STO is the abbreviation for an Assistant Stoker as you correctly surmise. 

Although these two jobs applied to one man may at first appear strange it is not impossible, merchant seamen changed departments out of necessity to keep employment, but we might be able to help you further if you give us the man's name.

A Merchant Seaman could serve on a Merchant Ship, a Merchant Fleet Auxiliary or in the Mercantile Marine Reserve and could change between any of those throughout the war years, if that person was able to apply for the award of a Mercantile Marine War Medal depended on whether or not they fulfilled the criteria for the award of that medal rather than on which ships they served and how those ships were employed. Before they could apply for the award of the MMWM they first had to fulfil the criteria for the award of the British War medal.

Tony

He has the Trio, I need to do more research, I'll do this when I get back home from sea.

 

Thank you 

[horatio2]

Is it possible that AST. STD. has been mis-read as AST. STO., given that stoker ratings in the MM are rare?

[TDS]

Here you go

[KizmeRD]

Looks like ASST. STD to my eyes (Assistant Steward).

MB