Identify Medal Bar

[i_malc]

I wonder if anyone can help me.  I’ve got a photograph of my Granddad in his army uniform and I’m trying to identify what the medal bar on his chest is? He was in the KRRC 4th and 8th Battalions 1914 -18.  Unfortunately the photo of him is not in the best condition.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

If you could provide his name and service number, that would be a great help. Thanks in advance.

[i_malc]

His name Robert Boyce

 

Reg Number 10727

Joined up under age in either 1913 or 14

1914 he was in 2nd KRRC

1915 he was in 4th KRRC and went to France in Jan 15

He was injured 24th May 1915 and was listed by the wrong service number when being transport back to England - Number 16737

1915-16 he was in  6th KRRC

May 1916 he was in the 8th KRRC

June 1918 he was in 12th KRRC

He also has two vertical strips on his left cuff two show he was injured twice but I can only find one of them

Hope this helps 

[Keith_history_buff]

Thanks, I see that he does not have a surviving service record. (I cross-checked British Army Ancestors).

A similar question was asked in August, and it may well be his 1914-15 Star ribbon

 

[david murdoch]

His 14/15 Star roll shows him being in service up to 11/10/1919 so time to receive his 15 Star and be wearing the ribbon. However this ribbon does not look like 15 Star  - centre colour is showing up dark and a more defined  stripe  His British War Medal/Victory Medals probably not received until 1920/1921 would be together in any case. He does not appear to have any other service numbers.

There are two medical records for his injury in May 1915 both note his service number correctly. Admitted No.3 Casualty Clearing Station on 26th May then 2nd General Hospital on 27th. This is presumably the first one, but no sign of his other wounding.  

[TEW]

Two hits on FMP'S MH106 admissions for the 1915 injury. To 3CCS then 2 GH.

 

Both under 10727, can't see anything for the other number, where did that come from?

 

His second wound stripe will probably date to April-July 1917 or after about May 1918 because online resources don't cover these dates. Having said that I'm still not sure with NLS's coverage.

TEW

[Sepoy]

It looks like the ribbon for the 1911 Coronation Medal or 1911 Delhi Durbar Medal. I wonder if he had any previous Military service and had re-enlisted into the KRRC.

Sepoy

[johntanner]

3 hours ago, Sepoy said:

It looks like the ribbon for the 1911 Coronation Medal or 1911 Delhi Durbar Medal. I wonder if he had any previous Military service and had re-enlisted into the KRRC.

Sepoy

Seems unlikely given OP’s statement on age.

[Andrew Upton]

20 hours ago, Sepoy said:

It looks like the ribbon for the 1911 Coronation Medal or 1911 Delhi Durbar Medal. I wonder if he had any previous Military service and had re-enlisted into the KRRC.

Sepoy

 

I agree with Sepoy: 

 

[RNCVR]

I may be way off, but might t be the ribbon of the DCM?  Is there anything on his Record to show if he was awarded the DCM?

 

Orthochromatic film of that period sometimes shows up colours in various shades of black to grey.

 

 

 

[johntanner]

MIC is annotated A(rmy) R(esreve) Class B.

 

No one with those details in DCM citation.

[Andrew Upton]

18 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I may be way off, but might t be the ribbon of the DCM?  Is there anything on his Record to show if he was awarded the DCM?

 

Orthochromatic film of that period sometimes shows up colours in various shades of black to grey.

 

 

 

 

 

Orthochromatic film typically "sees" blue as light and red as very dark, thus the colours as they appear in the OP would be correct for the 1911 Coronation or Delhi Durbar Medal but not for the DCM:

 

 

Edited 5 October , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[Sepoy]

6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Orthochromatic film typically "sees" blue as light and red as very dark, thus the colours as they appear in the OP would be correct for the 1911 Coronation or Delhi Durbar Medal but not for the DCM:

To back up Andrew's comments, I have had a look through my photograph collection and found these.

The first medal group consists of a Distinguished Conduct Medal (Edward VII); Queen's South Africa Medal; King's South Africa Medal and Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.

The second group consists of a Queen's Sudan Medal; Queen's South Africa Medal; King's South Africa Medal; 1914 Star with bar; British War Medal; Victory Medal with MID; 1911 Coronation Medal; French Croix de Guerre; Belgian Croix de Guerre and Khedive's Sudan Medal.

The ribbon being worn in the OPs attached photograph certainly looks like the 1911 Coronation Medal which would not fit his Grandfather's service history. Is it possible that this is the photograph of another close relative?

Sepoy

NB Regretfully, I do not own the original groups.

[johntanner]

Still doesn't make sense if the OP's statement that the individual joined up under-age in 1913 or 14. I get the science of orthochromatic film, but not consistent with the other evidence. 

[RNCVR]

I understand Andrew's statement concerning the varigies of orthochromatic film & the difficulties determining the actual colour of medal ribbons.

However I cannot see this soldier's ribbon being either a GeoV Coronation or Delhi Durbar ribbon,  also taking in John's comment, post above this.

We are missing something here but I dont know what.

 

My next guess(& at this point its just that - a guess) would be an IGS.  Did he ever serve post war in India?

 

Best to all....

Bryan

Edited 5 October , 2020 by RNCVR

[Sepoy]

1 hour ago, johntanner said:

Still doesn't make sense if the OP's statement that the individual joined up under-age in 1913 or 14. I get the science of orthochromatic film, but not consistent with the other evidence. 

Is the OP certain that this is the photograph of his Grandfather and not another member of his close family. I have had an example of this in my family where my late Mother mistook a photograph as being her young father when it actually turned out to be her Uncle!

Sepoy

[RNCVR]

Yes, sometimes one now in our time, never knows with these 100 year old photos, who is whom!!

[headgardener]

I think we need to establish exactly what is known about him, specifically his age - we don't know whether the OP is correct in stating that he joined up 'under age' in 1913 or 14.

 

Clearly (judging by the OP's 2nd post on this thread) there appear to be some surviving service details, but when exactly was 10727 Robert Boyce born? And is the OP certain that 10727 is their grandfather? 

[headgardener]

Fwiw, I agree that Coronation 1911 is the likeliest contender. Delhi Durbar is also a possibility. 

[Sepoy]

49 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

My next guess(& at this point its just that - a guess) would be an IGS.  Did he ever serve post war in India?

Regretfully I cannot find any clear contemporary photographs showing the Indian General Service Medal 1908 ribbon in my collection, but as can be seen below the central stripe is too wide when compared with the OPs photograph.
Regretfully, I cannot get access to my copy of Gordon's British Battles and Medals to see if any King's Royal Rifle Corps Battalion's served in Afghanistan during 1919.

Also similar is the General Service Medal 1918 ribbon but did the King's Royal Rifle Corps serve in Iraq or Persia or Kurdistan after WW1. I do not recall seeing either medal to members of this Regiment.

Sepoy

[RNCVR]

I too checked the Medals Yearbook, & agree with you Sepoy,  the possibility of an IGS was a 'longshot' & I missed!

 

We will figure it out eventually!  But I think we need to know more about his service wartime & possibly post war if any.....

 

Bryan

[headgardener]

7 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

I cannot get access to my copy of Gordon's British Battles and Medals to see if any King's Royal Rifle Corps Battalion's served in Afghanistan during 1919.

Also similar is the General Service Medal 1918 ribbon but did the King's Royal Rifle Corps serve in Iraq or Persia or Kurdistan after WW1. I do not recall seeing either medal to members of this Regiment.

 

 

Given that the presence of wound stripes but absence of campaign ribbons presumably date the photo to 1917-19, I would have expected an IGS 1919 or GSM Iraq / Persia to be listed on his MIC. The OP states that he served with 8th and 12th KRRC during this period, neither of which can be linked to any campaign relevant to either an IGS or GSM. We need confirmation of his date of birth plus confirmation that 10727 is the correct Robert Boyce. 

[RNCVR]

Agree with HG, we need to know if we have the correct man!

[david murdoch]

41 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Given that the presence of wound stripes but absence of campaign ribbons presumably date the photo to 1917-19, I would have expected an IGS 1919 or GSM Iraq / Persia to be listed on his MIC. The OP states that he served with 8th and 12th KRRC during this period, neither of which can be linked to any campaign relevant to either an IGS or GSM. We need confirmation of his date of birth plus confirmation that 10727 is the correct Robert Boyce. 

Hospital admission record from May 1915 has age 22 and year of birth 1893. There are a few Boyces served in KRRC in WW1 but only one  Robert Boyce.

[headgardener]

Was this his 'real' date of birth? If it was, then aged about 18 at the time of coronation. And 20-21ish at date of enlistment (assuming it was 1913?).

 

Any idea of civilian occupation?