historian9 Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 Whilst checking through records for my Great Uncle Robert Shirkie ( MIA Loos, 27/9/1915 ) I noticed that there are two other names listed on his pension card cited against "Description : other ranks died". Can someone please explain the relevance of these names.... might they refer to men also recorded as MIA from the same moment in time in the battle for Hill 70 ? Many thanks for any advice offered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelpi Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 Is it not simply the alphabetical range in which the card for Shirkle may be found......Shipley C to Short Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin ss002d6252 Posted 2 October , 2020 Admin Share Posted 2 October , 2020 Quote Description:Other Ranks Died Shipley C-Short A It's just a reference to the way that the files are indexed, it means nothing in particular. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 39 minutes ago, historian9 said: "Description : other ranks died". Can someone please explain the relevance of these names.... might they refer to men also recorded as MIA from the same moment in time in the battle for Hill 70 ? No it won't be. 28 minutes ago, michaelpi said: Is it not simply the alphabetical range in which the card for Shirkle may be found......Shipley C to Short Yes it is. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historian9 Posted 2 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 2 October , 2020 Ah. Many thanks for prompt reply. I have now found a second Robert Shirkie ( also from Glasgow) from a different regiment ( Roy Scot Fus) and different number.... who hasn't shown up on any Ancestry searches. This second Robert Shirkie is recorded as surviving the war. Having made much progress finding out about my Great Uncle, now I find there was soemine else fighting in the same war. Confusing. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 2 hours ago, historian9 said: I have now found a second Robert Shirkie ( also from Glasgow) from a different regiment ( Roy Scot Fus) and different number.... who hasn't shown up on any Ancestry searches. This second Robert Shirkie is recorded as surviving the war. Having made much progress finding out about my Great Uncle, now I find there was soemine else fighting in the same war. Confusing. You probably need to go back to your genealogy and perhaps let us know what you know / what you want to follow up on. From Pension records: Robert Shirkie [Died] - 10054 Scots Guards = mother: Mrs Mary Stark Shirkie, 224 Meadowpark St, Dennistoun, Glasgow Robert Shirkie [Survived] - 611681 Labour Corps [was 14517 Royal Scots Fusiliers from his MIC at the NA] = Disability pension for 'Debility' - 7 West St, Glasgow and 6 Southwestern Road, Craigbank, Glasgow Would help if you know - Which one are you after? Or, we are going to need more info on your GU. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadbrewer Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 (edited) From The Hamilton Advertiser, September 9th, 1916. Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. From The Scotsman November 2nd, 1915 Edited 2 October , 2020 by sadbrewer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historian9 Posted 2 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 2 October , 2020 My GU was Guardsman Robert Shirkie, 10054. I have a report prepared by Chris Baker which has been of immense help. I have read much about the actions 25-27th Sept 1915, incl. war diaries etc and am left with a sense of just how muddled the whole conflict around Hill 70 became. I would like to know whether Robert died on his way out of the Chalk Pits, on his way back down ( mixing with the Irish Guards ), on his way back around again on ground more towards Loos village. Eye witness accounts are cited ( many thanks for the above example) but so many men died on the 27th that I have found it nigh on impossible to find out anything more specific. How do I find out if Robert was actually KIA, ie maybe with some identifiable evidence found later, or MIA, with no physical evidence of his demise. May be I should stop searching and be grateful for the information I have already, but if there is more to Robert's story, I would like to find it. Many thanks in advance for any help and guidance received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 3 October , 2020 Share Posted 3 October , 2020 12 hours ago, historian9 said: My GU was Guardsman Robert Shirkie, 10054. I have a report prepared by Chris Baker which has been of immense help. I have read much about the actions 25-27th Sept 1915, incl. war diaries etc and am left with a sense of just how muddled the whole conflict around Hill 70 became. I would like to know whether Robert died on his way out of the Chalk Pits, on his way back down ( mixing with the Irish Guards ), on his way back around again on ground more towards Loos village. Eye witness accounts are cited ( many thanks for the above example) but so many men died on the 27th that I have found it nigh on impossible to find out anything more specific. How do I find out if Robert was actually KIA, ie maybe with some identifiable evidence found later, or MIA, with no physical evidence of his demise. May be I should stop searching and be grateful for the information I have already, but if there is more to Robert's story, I would like to find it. Many thanks in advance for any help and guidance received. His original Service Return on Scotlands People has him presumed dead 27/9/1915. The service returns are in alphabetical order and on his page there are a further two men shown as presumed dead on the same date at Loos. Interestingly there is a second (presumably later) typed Service Return and this shows the same men listed KiA 27/9/1915. From other experience men listed "Missing" on a given date generally go through a timeline of being missing - firstly would be from the next roll call of their unit where they were physically unaccounted for, then time allowed that they did not show up in a casualty clearing station or in time as a POW, officially listed as missing, to being missing presumed dead. They may later be confirmed dead by identification of a body, or death presumed - in the vast majority of cases final date of death is the day they went missing. Are you aware his soldiers will is also available on Scotland's People.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 October , 2020 Share Posted 3 October , 2020 (edited) ScotlandsPeople https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk As above [under Deaths] Also including 1915 & 1920 Valuation Rolls for Robert Shirkie, 224 Meadowpark Street, Glasgow - I suspect he is your GGU Probably more. I can't comment on what you will actually find - but it looks like you might need to acquire a bit of credit with SP!!! ;-) M Edited 3 October , 2020 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historian9 Posted 3 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2020 Many many thanks David..... well explained. I didn't know about Scotland's People but will now have a rummage and see what else I can find as well as Robert's will, although I think I have that already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historian9 Posted 3 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2020 Thanks also to M (Matlock). Both your advice well received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 3 October , 2020 Share Posted 3 October , 2020 10 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: ScotlandsPeople https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk As above [under Deaths] Also including 1915 & 1920 Valuation Rolls for Robert Shirkie, 224 Meadowpark Street, Glasgow - I suspect he is your GGU Probably more. I can't comment on what you will actually find - but it looks like you might need to acquire a bit of credit with SP!!! ;-) M Being fairly familiar with Scotlands People. Got quite used to filter searching and identifying before committing to spending credits! Searching "Robert Shirkie" it's not a common name in Scotland. In the 1911 Census only 78 Shirkies in total and these break down into family groups in different areas. The 3 Robert Shirkies in Scotland appear to be Historian 9's Great Uncle and his father in Hamilton. The other is a young lad from quite large Shirkie family grouping in New Cumnock - too young to have been the Royal Scots Fusilier mentioned previously. Only two Shirkies died in WW1 (CWGC) Robert the Scots Guard and a Michael Shirkie 7th Cameron Highlanders (and he links to the New Cumnock Family group). I'd deduce from this the Royal Scots Fusiliers was not in Scotland at the 1911 Census - possibly elsewhere if already in the army. Searching Robert Shirkie between 1910 and 1920 gives the two deaths (service returns) - both are for the same man. 1915 Valuation rolls are for his father and then there is the soldiers will. 1920 Valuation rolls one to his father and the other I think possibly the Royal Scots Fusilier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 October , 2020 Share Posted 3 October , 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, david murdoch said: Got quite used to filter searching and identifying before committing to spending credits! David Liked with your Service Return above record screenshot and I agree with your observation & help/warning for H9 - but there does seem to be a minimum spend, of 30 credits, at SP! Hope we have helped him - You more than me here! :-) M Edited 3 October , 2020 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historian9 Posted 4 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 4 October , 2020 Well, thanks to the above info, I have indeed delved into the Scotlands People archives, and found a few pointers, and also quite a few red herrings. I am now curious to discover whether the three Shirkie men were close enough within the family tree to have known of each other's existence. But back to Robert's story at Loos, I have had a link sent by Michelle to IWM's aerial photography archive and will now try to find anything relating to Hill 70 in there. Once again. many thanks for your help, it is really appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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