Help Needed With Tank Corps Location

[Shiny]

Hi All,

 

I'm still researching a relative who joined up and was made an instructor in the Tank Corps before having gone overseas.

 

According to his service record he was eventually sent to France on the 14th of April 1918 and then sent back to the training school just 6 weeks later on the 31st of May 1918.

 

I don't know a great deal aout how the Tank Corps worked. Would they have all been in the same place and if so can anyone tell me where that was during those dates or is it a bit more complicated than that?

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Michael

Edited 1 October , 2020 by Shiny

[Gareth Davies]

Can you give us a name?

 

There were a number of training schools in France; gunnery on the coast (for obvious reasons) and others inland.  Might he have been at one of these rather than at Bovington?

[Shiny]

Hi Gareth,

 

His name was 112823 Cpl Edwin Woodger, he was commissioned on the 23rd of Mar 1919 and I think I have posted about him a few years ago.

 

I have his record and Bovington is mentioned on it.

 

Unfortunately it just has a line saying France and the two dates, I'd love to know where he went for those 6 weeks and what he might have been involved with. 

 

Michael 

Edited 1 October , 2020 by Shiny

[Gareth Davies]

He doesn't appear in any of the WDs nor histories.

[Shiny]

Hi Gareth,

 

Thanks very much for checking so quickly, it's really appreciated.

 

You obviously know a thing or two about the Tank Corps, is there any likely locations you could take an educated guess at him being sent to?

 

I'm guessing as he was sent there for such a short time it was to get him some credibility and experience to add to his training courses.

 

Michael 

[Gareth Davies]

Can you give some more details please. Maybe a copy of his service record will help.

[david murdoch]

24 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

Can you give some more details please. Maybe a copy of his service record will help.

Here's the link to the original thread.

[Gareth Davies]

Thanks - but that doesn't help.

[Shiny]

Thanks for posting the link David and for your patience with me Gareth.

 

I don't think I can post all of his record as there is quite a lot of pages however this is the reference to France I found.

 

Michael

 

 

[Shiny]

This is he bit showing he was at Bovington

[Shiny]

I have also worked out a time line based on dates I have been able to pick out of his record:

 

Feb 1900 – Jun 1910        1^st Northumberland Volunteer Artillery and 1^st Northumberland Brigade RFA(T)

9 Dec 1915                           Attested

27 Mar 1917                        Mobilized - Reenlisted RFA

29 Mar 1917                        Posted to A Bty, No 1 Reserve Brigade, Royal Field Artillery (Territorial)

Apr 1917                              Went before OC A Bty RFA at Ripon, Maj Bodfield re commission – rejected

11 Aug 1917                        Compulsory transfer to Machine Gun Corps (Heavy Branch)

15 Aug 1917                        Posted to Tanks Depot

16 Jan 1918                         Promoted to Acting Corporal Instructor

22 Jan 1918                         Posted to School of Instruction

14/4/18 to 31/5/18              Served in France

13 Jul 1918                           Character reference from WH Woodger for last 10 years and

                                             W Brabban – Headmaster, St. John’s school Newcastle

29 Jul 1918                           Recommended for commission into the Tank Corps. Signed by the Brigadier General commanding the Tank Corps Training School at Bovington

1 Aug 1918                          Character reference from Maj Graham 1^st Northumberland Brigade RFA(T) saying he was with the unit 1900 to 1910 last 4 years as a Sgt

18 Sep 1918                        599 sent

18 Oct 1918                         accepted to 24 Officer Cadet Battalion at Hangley Down Camp, Winchester

24 Oct 1918                         Orders cancelled, to rejoin 15 Nov 1918

16 Nov 1918                        Posted

14 Feb 1919                        Confidential report from OC 24 Tank Corps, Officer Cadet Battalion at Hazeley Down Camp saying he has completed a tank driving course,                                                          signalling course and machine gun course

17 Feb 1919                        Demobilized

23 Mar 1919                        Gazetted as 2Lt in the Tank Corps under army order 42, Feb 1919

18 Nov 1919                        Confidential report says he joined the Officer Cadet Unit.

[INW]

Only to promote discussion

 

This is just pure speculation and based no historic facts.

 

The dates he was in France follow the German Spring Offensive which started on the 22 March 1918 and they advanced many miles towards Paris. Did they capture British tankodromes and tank training depots. Would training staff from the UK be required to help establish replacement facilities and to help reorder the chaos that must have been caused?

 

INW

[Shiny]

Thanks INW,

 

I had also twigged he would have been out there at that time but as I said I know nothing about the tank corps or how they worked.

 

I didn't know if they were involved in the spring offensive or where they were deployed at the time if they were.

 

How many tanks was there? Did they go into battle as one corps or was there enough that they were split into squadrons and spread around France.

 

I've never heard of a tankodrome before either, I presume that is a base for some / all of them.

 

Any help would be appreciated,

 

Michael 

[johntaylor]

Hi, it's great that you were able to get hold of his Service Record, which I see was my recommendation when we discussed Cpl Woodger before (see thread above).

 

It would be very interesting to find out what he did during the six weeks or so he was in France, but unfortunately that will be difficult, always assuming there are no letters or records in the family. As an instructor it's most likely he would have been based at Erin, which was the Central Workshops and HQ of the Tank Corps throughout the war. There's information on the website of the local research group, who also have a Facebook page: http://www.tank-erin.com/crbst_17.html

 

As Ian says, this coincided with the German Spring Offensive and he may well have been sent out for that reason, though it seems very unlikely that he would have been rushed into action as part of a tank crew. In his Service Record there should be a blue document called a Casualty Form, which is a misleading name as it's basically a record of which units he served with and when. You might like to post that here for us to have a look at, as it's the best chance of finding out where he was during that period.

 

For an account of Tank Corps actions you could check the Official History which is available online: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/62881/62881-h/62881-h.htm

 

Hope this is helpful,

 

John

[Shiny]

Hi John,

 

Thanks for the reply and the tip about getting his service record, it took a while to get down to London but I managed to get it together with his brother Albert's record who I have also had a lot of help with on the forum.

 

Thanks for the suggestion about Erin, I'll do some reading up on that. Am I right in thinking he was unlikely to have actually come into contact with the enemy?

 

I have photographed his entire record including the covering folder it came out in, unfortunately there is no blue form or any other casualty related document in there, the closest one I can find is a statement of services which I have attached.

 

On a different note and without wanting to turn into a fan boy, I really enjoyed your talk about Deborah on the WFA zoom meetings, I was suppost to be going on a battlefield tour last week and had added her onto the list of places to go after watching you, escpecially as I can now relate Edwin's service to it. Unfortunately  the tour didn't happen but hopefully next year it will.

 

Thanks again for the help,

 

Michael

[johntaylor]

Hi Michael,

 

Firstly many thanks for your comments about the Deborah lecture - I'm delighted you heard it and enjoyed it, and I really hope you get the chance to go out there soon. I'm still hoping I might make it for the anniversary in November, but it's looking increasingly unlikely. Never mind - there's always another year!

 

Regarding Edwin's service record, it's frustratingly vague and the Statement of Services (attached) doesn't even mention his spell of overseas duty which is recorded in the other document you sent. From the timing it seems he was sent to France at a time of extreme emergency, but the Statement doesn't mention him being posted to a tank battalion so there's no evidence he ever went into action as a member of a tank crew.  However it was a pretty chaotic period and nothing can be completely ruled out. The authorities certainly felt he was officer material, but his commission came through right at the end of the war so again from the documents you've sent there's no evidence he was ever posted to a battalion.

 

I know this is frustrating but you've already got far more information than a lot of other people! The Service Record is invaluable and without that it would be very hard to make sense of his story. Unfortunately it's hard to say any more without a lucky find like a newspaper article which might shed more light. There are other files in the National Archives which could tell you more about the work of the Training Schools but they're very unlikely to mention him by name: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C162292

 

Sorry not to be able to help any more than this,

 

John

 

[Shiny]

Thank you very much for the help John, it sounds like his short time in France may remain a mystery.

 

I thought people might be interested to see the man himself.

 

Thanks again everyone for all the help.

 

Michael 

[johntaylor]

Great photo Michael - thanks for putting a face to the name!

 

All the best, John

Edited 5 October , 2020 by johntaylor

[delta]

The School of Instruction was at Bovington.  I have come across other instructor who were detached to one of the Tank Schools in France for sort periods and vice versa.

My knowledge is not complete but the Driving and Maintenance (D&M) School in France in early 1918 was at Aveluy.  When the Germans swept though the Somme battlefield, the School moved although, not before some of the instructors had been deployed on the Pozieres Ridge to reinforce 8th Tank Battalion who held part of the Line.

The Tank Corps Gunnery School in France was at Merlimont plage for the duration.  There was also the Training and Reinforcement Depot which provided instruction to individuals on trade courses as well as refresher  training for wounded crewmen before they were sent to units.  This was at Le Treport / Mers les Bains.

 

He is unlikely to have been a  D&M instructor as this were found from Class I Tank Machinists - this qualification would appear on his Casualty Form.  

 

Hope this is useful information although it probably isn't exactly what you are looking for. 

[johntaylor]

That's interesting Stephen - can you tell us the source of the information about instructors being sent to reinforce 8th Bn at Pozieres please? I wonder if Edwin Woodger might have been one of them?

 

John

[Shiny]

Thanks very much for the help Delta, that's really interesting.

 

I don't think there's anything on his record to say which trade he taught although there is something saying he did a driving course whilst doing his officer training which would imply he couldn't already do that.

 

I wonder if the fact that he had been in the RFA reserves before the war would give him an advantage on the gunnery side, maybe that was his speciality? Just a thought.

 

Thanks again,

 

Michael 

[delta]

17 hours ago, johntaylor said:

That's interesting Stephen - can you tell us the source of the information about instructors being sent to reinforce 8th Bn at Pozieres please? I wonder if Edwin Woodger might have been one of them?

 

John

Sorry John - finger slippage - it was 9th battalion and there are two sources. 

The first is 9th Bn's war diary; the other is Clough William Ellis' book The Tank Corps page 168: “Another incident-of which the authors have not been able to obtain many particulars-was the action fought by a scratch Tank force formed out of all the fighting Tanks from the driving school, Aveluy” 

 

 

[johntaylor]

Thanks for this information Stephen, and well spotted!  I've just looked up the reference in Clough Williams-Ellis's book (on page 256, so obviously a different edition). It's a shame he couldn't pin the story down but must have believed it sufficiently to include it in the official history. 

 

All the best, John

 

 

 

[Shiny]

Thanks very much Stephen, it's really interesting. I've downloaded the book now so will have a read through.

 

It's a pity we have pretty much decided Edwin wasn't a driver or that might have explained things.

 

Michael