Pte Andrew C Paterson, 2 Canadian Mounted Rifles: date and circumstances of death.

[rolt968]

This is part of the report of the death of Pte Andrew C Paterson in the Forfar Herald and Kirriemuir Advertiser of 23 June 1916:

 

"“A better friend and comrade it would be hard to find. Whenever I had to go out on any work that required a cool head, I took him with me, for he did not know what fear was and in a tight place I could always rely on him and his doing the right thing.”

At Ypres a fortnight ago there was fierce engagement in which the Canadians bore a brave part. A telephone wire connecting the front line with Brigade Headquarters required to be laid, and though a hurricane of German shells, Private Paterson fearlessly went out to do the work. A piece of shrapnel hit in the head and death was instantaneous."

 

The first paragraph quotes from a letter from "his" sergeant to the family. I am assuming that the information in the second parapgraph comes from the same source.  It seems to give very specific information about Andrew Paterson's death. However both the CEF Circumstances of Death and Burial Register place his death on 2 to 5 June 1916 and say no more than killed in action. The CEF Burial Register has a note that he was killed in Zillebeeke Switch Trench and that there was no record of burial. The Circumstances of Death has that the battalion was attacking at Maple Copse.

 

I am a bit surprised that since an NCO seems to have known quite specific details of Andrew Paterson's death nothing of this appears in the Circumstances of Death form. Or at least a more accurate date.

 

(I am a bit wary of details which come from letters to the family. However this seems to go quite a bit further than softening the blow.)

RM

Edited to correct dates.

Edited 30 September , 2020 by rolt968

[Guest]

 It has the ring of authenticity, subject to local censorship at unit level in France.  The family was from Forfar and thereabouts-as per NOK details on his CEF service file.  As the man was out in No Mans Land, it seems likely that his death could not be confirmed until his body was recovered- thus, the lattitude of death date. The early date should really be "last seen" and the latter date should really be "found" (But not recovered for burial-on the Ypres Missing Memorial).

   It does raise the question as to WHO verified that a man was dead for "official" purposes,as this confusion between eye-witness accounts and the casualty lists is quite common. I suspect that unless a man was verified as dead [speculation-by an officer?), there had to be a presumption that he was only wounded. A sergeant observing could not be sure.  By chance, I am writing up a local casualty at the moment where the problem is much the same-  man is listed in his battalion war diary as "wounded" during a attack at Beurlon Wood, 27th September 1918. He was reported as such in the published casualty list of 14th October 1918.  But his body had already been found by the Canadian Corps when advancing,on 8th October 1918. Thus, a correction that the man was KIA in the casualty lists for 27th November 1918.  Of course, the usual fortnight admin. process the first time round before his name came up in a casualty list but no mention that he must have been seen to go down in NML or the German lines.  The uncertainty continued as an ICRC card exists for him, suggesting that death could not be confirmed. By the way, I have several men who have ICRC cards labelled "blesse et disparu"-when it was already known locally that the man was dead. 

    It seems that officialdom and the reports to family could often be different, though with no certainty or consistency as to which was the more reliable. On the other hand, I have yet to see any local report-obviously on information coming to NOK other than from the War Office -where the local information has proved to be other than correct. 

    I suppose the only clue as to the later possible death date is what the man's unit was doing on 5th June 1916, if there is a war diary. Possibly another lurch out into NML???  I suspect one of the unhappy tasks for any venture across the parapet was to keep a look-out for men who had "disappeared" in previous ventures. Alas, all too common

[rolt968]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

This is part of the report of the death of Pte Andrew C Paterson in the Forfar Herald and Kirriemuir Advertiser of 23 June 1916:

 

"“A better friend and comrade it would be hard to find. Whenever I had to go out on any work that required a cool head, I took him with me, for he did not know what fear was and in a tight place I could always rely on him and his doing the right thing.”

At Ypres a fortnight ago there was fierce engagement in which the Canadians bore a brave part. A telephone wire connecting the front line with Brigade Headquarters required to be laid, and though a hurricane of German shells, Private Paterson fearlessly went out to do the work. A piece of shrapnel hit in the head and death was instantaneous."

 

The first paragraph quotes from a letter from "his" sergeant to the family. I am assuming that the information in the second parapgraph comes from the same source.  It seems to give very specific information about Andrew Paterson's death. However both the CEF Circumstances of Death and Burial Register place his death on 2 to 5 June 1916 and say no more than killed in action. The CEF Burial Register has a note that he was killed in Zillebeeke Switch Trench and that there was no record of burial. The Circumstances of Death has that the battalion was attacking at Maple Copse.

 

I am a bit surprised that since an NCO seems to have known quite specific details of Andrew Paterson's death nothing of this appears in the Circumstances of Death form. Or at least a more accurate date.

 

(I am a bit wary of details which come from letters to the family. However this seems to go quite a bit further than softening the blow.)

RM

Edited to corrcet dates: 1916 not 1918!

[Matlock1418]

Hi Rolt

Not wholly sure of all the dates in your OP [you might like to edit it ??] - Know you have recognised death as 1916, but newspaper date??

Presuming you are referring to Andrew Coutts PATERSON. 108445, 2CMR

CWGC do record as 2 June 1916

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1595150/ANDREW COUTTS PATERSON

And his Canadian SR as 2/5 June 1916 Also there seemingly more definitively as 5 June 1916

https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B7635-S021

Couldn't see there a circumstances of death [specific circumstances beyond kiA] or anything relating to burial there but he was recorded as authorised discharged from CEF 5 June 1916 [so hopefully got paid for those extra days - his widow got a pension recorded as from either 3 or 6 June 1916 - so did they up pay up his pay?  I hope so.]

Compared to some British examples of two/various dates is that, based on this example, the Canadians might seem to be prepared to pay pay until the later date, whereas from other SR the British do seem to have paid to the earlier date. [British pensions obviously being a cheaper rate than a soldier's pay ;-( ]

It is a puzzle in a number of record areas [Military, CWGC, Pensions - and in the press] for many casualties

Whole issue of various dates for death is of much interest - see other threads incl. recently.

;-) M

Edited 30 September , 2020 by Matlock1418
expand

[rolt968]

Thank you both.

Apologies. I was certainly have a few senior monents yesterday morning. He was killed in 1916 and the newspaper item was also from 1916. However his death was mentioned in the papers again in 1918 when two of his brothers also serving with the CEF, were killed.

 

I also forgot to identify the sources fully:

Canada, War Graves Registers (Circumstances of Casualty), 1914-1948

Canada, CEF Commonwealth War Graves Registers, 1914-1919

both available at ancestry.

RM

[rolt968]

 It has the ring of authenticity, subject to local censorship at unit level in France.  The family was from Forfar and thereabouts-as per NOK details on his CEF service file.  As the man was out in No Mans Land, it seems likely that his death could not be confirmed until his body was recovered- thus, the lattitude of death date. The early date should really be "last seen" and the latter date should really be "found" (But not recovered for burial-on the Ypres Missing Memorial).

   It does raise the question as to WHO verified that a man was dead for "official" purposes,as this confusion between eye-witness accounts and the casualty lists is quite common. I suspect that unless a man was verified as dead [speculation-by an officer?), there had to be a presumption that he was only wounded. A sergeant observing could not be sure.  By chance, I am writing up a local casualty at the moment where the problem is much the same-  man is listed in his battalion war diary as "wounded" during a attack at Beurlon Wood, 27th September 1918. He was reported as such in the published casualty list of 14th October 1918.  But his body had already been found by the Canadian Corps when advancing,on 8th October 1918. Thus, a correction that the man was KIA in the casualty lists for 27th November 1918.  Of course, the usual fortnight admin. process the first time round before his name came up in a casualty list but no mention that he must have been seen to go down in NML or the German lines.  The uncertainty continued as an ICRC card exists for him, suggesting that death could not be confirmed. By the way, I have several men who have ICRC cards labelled "blesse et disparu"-when it was already known locally that the man was dead. 

    It seems that officialdom and the reports to family could often be different, though with no certainty or consistency as to which was the more reliable. On the other hand, I have yet to see any local report-obviously on information coming to NOK other than from the War Office -where the local information has proved to be other than correct. 

    I suppose the only clue as to the later possible death date is what the man's unit was doing on 5th June 1916, if there is a war diary. Possibly another lurch out into NML???  I suspect one of the unhappy tasks for any venture across the parapet was to keep a look-out for men who had "disappeared" in previous ventures. Alas, all too common

Thank that makes a lot of sense. The CEF Circumstances of Death forms are proving to be very useful, but need to be read carefully. I have one where it says that the man (a corporal) was last seen leading his section in the attack at ... .  which really lead to this discussion. I will see of I can find it. (Perhaps an officer saw the corporal leading his men into the attack?)

 

(In addition to thinking that the account of Andrew Paterson's death has the ring of truth. I can't resist saying that I am glad to see the sergeant's use of the possessive "his doing the right thing".)

RM

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

(In addition to thinking that the account of Andrew Paterson's death has the ring of truth. I can't resist saying that I am glad to see the sergeant's use of the possessive "his doing the right thing".)

  Yes, very much agreed.  The modern concepts, based on extensive work by psychologists, is that men owe their loyalty to the small group around them, not to higher airy-fairy notions of "division" and "corps".   It is quite a telling  line- I have several NCO letters  to family that emphasise that the dead man was reliable and dependable-  a very poignant comment on  who men going into action realistically put their trust in-  their immediate colleagues.

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Canada, War Graves Registers (Circumstances of Casualty), 1914-1948

Canada, CEF Commonwealth War Graves Registers, 1914-1919

Thanks for these sources - never previously looked at these Registers - they look handy - also available outwith Ancestry at LAC

Circumstances of Death Registers, First World War

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/circumstances-death-registers/Pages/circumstances-death-registers.aspx

Commonwealth War Graves Registers, First World War

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/commonwealth-war-graves-registers/Pages/commonwealth-war-graves-registers.aspx

 

Here are Paterson's for those who might like to look

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/circumstances-death-registers/Pages/item.aspx?PageID=77309

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/commonwealth-war-graves-registers/Pages/item.aspx?PageId=129798

 

Interested to note too that there are Veterans Death Cards: First World War for some who died after the war

https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/microform-digitization/006003-110.02-e.php?&q2=36&interval=50&sk=0&PHPSESSID=rgi7t06a60or2jdheocn6v65f4

Every day a school day on GWF

:-) M

[rolt968]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for these sources - never previously looked at these Registers - they look handy - also available outwith Ancestry at LAC

Circumstances of Death Registers, First World War

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/circumstances-death-registers/Pages/circumstances-death-registers.aspx

Commonwealth War Graves Registers, First World War

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/commonwealth-war-graves-registers/Pages/commonwealth-war-graves-registers.aspx

 

Here are Paterson's for those who might like to look

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/circumstances-death-registers/Pages/item.aspx?PageID=77309

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/mass-digitized-archives/commonwealth-war-graves-registers/Pages/item.aspx?PageId=129798

 

Interested to note too that there are Veterans Death Cards: First World War for some who died after the war

https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/microform-digitization/006003-110.02-e.php?&q2=36&interval=50&sk=0&PHPSESSID=rgi7t06a60or2jdheocn6v65f4

Every day a school day on GWF

:-) M

Be a little careful with the Circumstances of Death register. It can be very useful and informative. But note that it is "Location of Unit at Time of Casualty" which is not necessarily the location of the soldier's death.

RM

[Matlock1418]

Always wary!

But many thanks for the additional warning re: Location

:-) M

[SHJ]

The 2nd June was the start of the Battle of Mount Sorrel and the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles were in reserve that day.  They were called up to assist the defence (and conduct a counter attack) at about 3pm but in the face of colossal bombardments and machine gun fire they had to retreat and dig in to the Maple Copse support trench.  Many of the Canadian dead that day had estimated death dates that covered days from the 2nd June onwards as there was no way to determine exactly when men had died.  The 2nd CMR retired from the line at 2am on June 4th.

 

Was the Sgt in question Eldon Hillard 107312?  He's recommended for the Military Medal in the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles war diary on June 6th.  I don't know if it was awarded but if so there might be additional information available on what happened to A C Paterson.  The communication lines being severed during that battle was a key issue so the letter certainly rings true.

 

Here's a link to the diaries.

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=fonandcol&IdNumber=1883304&new=-8585927987760729373

[rolt968]

Many thanks for both the insight and the link to the war diary.

 

When I started the thread I was having difficulties with the war diary part of the Library and Archives of Canada site and had given up trying for the time being.

Unfortunately the sergeant who wrote to the family is not named (in the newspaper at least).

RM