Pte Stephen David Morris: Welch Regiment 45356; Cheshire Regiment 52753

[Sallyjane]

I'm trying to find out information about my Great Uncle, Stephen David Morris (photo attached). I have found some documents but don't have the full picture.

 

Short Service Attestation of No 52753 Stephen D Morris, The Cheshire Regiment dated 9/12/1915 at Porth.

Certified 24/3/1916 at Cardiff.

 

 

On this document there was also a number 45356 crossed out and Welsh Regiment hand written above the printed Cheshire Regiment.  (see attached)

 

I don't know what this means. Was he in the Welsh Regiment first with a different number? If so, when did he first enlist? And which regiment was he in?

 

Stephen died on 8 Jun 1918 at 53 Casualty Clearing Centre. Where was this?

 

His remains are buried at Bailleul Communal Cemetery Extension Nord III C292 (is this the grave location in the cemetery?)

 

If anyone can provide further information, I'd be very grateful and interested.

 

Thank you.

 

Private S D Morris - CWGC Certificate.pdf

[Chesterboy]

Soldiers Died shows that he was born at Abergorlech, Glam.  Enlisted at Porth, Glam and lived at Tylorstown, Glam. 

 

it also shows that he was formerly 45356 Welsh Regiment.  So he enlisted into the Welsh Regiment, then transferred to the Cheshire Regiment.  The service papers should tell you more, 

III.C.292 

 

is Plot 3, Row C, Grave 292 

 

 

[IPT]

Hi there,

 

Which website did you find that attestation on? There are more pages, and they show that he went to France with the 21st Welsh Regiment 28/6/1916, but was attached to 11th Cheshires 13/7/1916, and transferred to them 1/9/1916.

 

 

[Chesterboy]

The 53rd Casualty Clearing Station was stationed at Bailleul from 23rd July 1917 to 28th March 1918.  It was known as North Midland C.C.S 

[Sallyjane]

Thanks @Chesterboyand @IPT 

You've been very helpful.

I've looked at the extra pages and that explains a lot. I think my sister found the info on Ancestry.co.uk. 

Was it common to be transferred to other regiments?

When the Covid-19 restrictions are lifted, I will go to Bailleul to pay my respects. 

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, Sallyjane said:

Thanks @Chesterboyand @IPT 

You've been very helpful.

I've looked at the extra pages and that explains a lot. I think my sister found the info on Ancestry.co.uk. 

Was it common to be transferred to other regiments?

When the Covid-19 restrictions are lifted, I will go to Bailleul to pay my respects. 

Sally, are you aware that the cap badge he is wearing in the photo you posted is that of the Welsh Regiment?

 

There were a number of reasons why men were transferred between regiments.  Sometimes battalions had such heavy casualties that they were no longer effective and if the system for reinforcing them from Britain was no longer sustainable then they were broken up and remnants sent to other battalions of the same regiment or different regiments altogether.  This happened a lot at the end of 1917 and into the Summer of 1918.  
Also, after the Somme battles that commenced in July 1916, reconstition measures led to some men being transferred to bring other units back up to strength.  
By far the most common circumstances though were after a man had been wounded, sent home to recover, and then upon return to France sent to a different regiment via the infantry base depots (IBDs) that processed reinforcements.

Before the military service act that introduced compulsory conscription in 1916, men would volunteer on enlistment to join a particular regiment, but after that date they were enlisted for ‘general service’ and this enabled the army to send men where they were needed at any time deemed necessary.  As well as men moving between different infantry battalions it also led to fit men from the support arms of the army being compulsorily transferred to the infantry in order to provide battle casualty replacements.  
Some extremely unlucky men were initially in the infantry, wounded and on recovery sent to a support arm, only then to be retransferred to the infantry in 1918 and killed.  It was something of a lottery. 

Edited 29 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 hours ago, Chesterboy said:

Soldiers Died shows that he was born at Abergorlech, Glam.  

Can you post an image?

Abergorlech is a rural village in Carmarthenshire, quite a journey in those days to the Rhonddas, although lots of country Boys left home to go and work in the coal mines.

Could it be Aber... something else?

Abergorki, Abercwmboi or similar?

 

Edit, just seen he was the son of the Black Ox, Abergwili, Carmarthen, so that fits with Abergorlech, Carms.

As it happens, I shall be driving past the Black Ox later, and have several happy memories of pleasant evenings spent there many years ago. My last pub meal before lockdown was an excellent Sunday lunch there.

S D Morris is commemorated on the Abergwili War Memorial which is situated just a stone's throw away from the Black Ox. (You can see the pub sign behind the parked cars up the road).

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8659689,-4.2696699,3a,30y,61.14h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szN5m4dyJXIb8nptlzuZINQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

Edited 29 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Sallyjane]

Thanks @FROGSMILE - really fascinating information. It helps build a picture of some of the experiences G Uncle Stephen possibly went through. The badge picture is great. Thank you.

 

A coincidence, @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr. We were in the pub a few weeks ago when doing some research. We found Stephen's memorial in the Ebenezer Chapel graveyard but completely missed the war memorial (a real omission - very embarrassed!). Agree the food in the Black Ox is lovely. My dad was born there (upstairs) in 1928 to Stephen's sister Gertrude. She had married Dan Griffiths who became chauffeur to the Bishop of St Davids and lived at 39 High Street, Abergwili until his death in 1964.

[Matlock1418]

Sallyjane

There are 4/5 pension records on Western Front Association/Fold3

Stephen's date of death from wounds is given as 8 June 1917 [which matches CWGC] - a typo may have crept into your original post

 

2 hours ago, Sallyjane said:

Black Ox is lovely. My dad was born there (upstairs) in 1928 to Stephen's sister Gertrude. She had married Dan Griffiths

There is one pension card which names his parents: Anne, and then Richard (in 1931), at the Black Ox and it also gives at a seemingly later date a Nominee:- Gertrude GRIFFITHS.

:-) M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

6 hours ago, Sallyjane said:

@Dai Bach y Sowldiwr the Black Ox is lovely. My dad was born there (upstairs) in 1928 to Stephen's sister Gertrude. She had married Dan Griffiths who became chauffeur to the Bishop of St Davids and lived at 39 High Street, Abergwili until his death in 1964.

Chauffering for the Bishop fits, the Bishop's Palace is just  another 100 yards beyond the pub. It's Carmarthen Museum now.

 

Here you go,

Some fresh, almost live images of Abergwili, taken less than 2 hrs ago:

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

This is probably his birth registration, don't be put off by the Lampeter Registration District.

Although Lampeter is in Ceredigion (then Cardiganshire), the district then covered parts of North Carmarthenshire, including Llanfihangel Rhosycorn, which includes Abergorlech.

Births Dec 1891   (>99%)
MORRIS	Stephen David		Lampeter	11b	27

Edited 29 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Sallyjane]

Brilliant!

[clk]

Hi Sallyjane,

 

If you don't already have it, the war diary for the 11/Cheshires,  is available as a free download (after registration) from the National Archives - link.  It is very unlikely to mention Stephen by name though. It might also be worth getting a copy of the Brigade HQ, and the Division HQ (General Staff) diaries as they often contain 'extras' that add more context to the lower level Battalion diary. At the National Archives ,for the time of his death, they are here, and here. If there are any map references, there is help on how to read them here.

 

If you would like a digital image of his resting place, it looks like British War Graves would be able to send you one (on a free of charge basis).

 

Regards

Chris

[Sallyjane]

That's great - thank you for taking the trouble to help me understand more about what Stephen might have experienced. I will look at the links you have given and see if I can get a picture of his grave.

Best regards

SJ

[Sallyjane]

On 29/09/2020 at 15:55, Matlock1418 said:

There is one pension card which names his parents: Anne, and then Richard (in 1931), at the Black Ox and it also gives at a seemingly later date a Nominee:- Gertrude GRIFFITHS.

:-) M

Hi @Matlock1418
You took the time last year to provide me with some information about my 2xGreat Uncle Stephen D Morris. Thank you.

Your last message mentioned Gertrude Griffiths as nominee on his pension record.

Gertrude was Stephen's sister who married Dan Griffiths (my Grandad) in 1928.

How did the pension system work? Would Stephen's parents and/or Gertrude his nominee have received a pension in Stephen's name? Why would the nominee details be added/updated 10 years after his death? 

Any light you could shed on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks.

SJ


 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Sallyjane said:

How did the pension system work? Would Stephen's parents and/or Gertrude his nominee have received a pension in Stephen's name? Why would the nominee details be added/updated 10 years after his death? 

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

The Nominee annotation seems the latest to me in 1939 [?]

Pensions were normally claimed by/paid to dependent relatives - such as parents but married sisters seem rarely likely to have a claim.

Unless special circumstances perhaps prevailed - Perhaps your family history might shed a light on something around this date ??

I'm afraid I don't know what happened in this case - the main pension file will however be long gone/destroyed.

Forum expert @ss002d6252may perhaps be able to shed more light - this mention should bring your enquiry to his notice.

Good luck.

:-) M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 28/09/2020 at 19:44, Sallyjane said:

Stephen died on 8 Jun 1918

Just noticed that CWGC and Abergwili Memorial both confirm June 1917.

[Sallyjane]

Thanks @Matlock1418

A bit of a mystery. I can't find anything significant happening in 1939. Stephen's mother, Anne died in 1931. His father, Richard in 1942. Richard was living with Gertrude in 1939 (1939 Register). Gertrude had one remaining older sister (unmarried) and a younger one. It looks like the other change (from Mother to Father was 8 or 9/10/31 which may have been Anne's date of death - I hadn't previously known the actual date.)

@ss002d6252 - any ideas?

Thanks again for your help.

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Just noticed that CWGC and Abergwili Memorial both confirm June 1917.

Thanks - it was my error - typo!

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, Sallyjane said:

Richard was living with Gertrude in 1939 (1939 Register)

It might perhaps have meant that he was in need of a trustee/nominee to handle his affairs in 1939 ???

:-) M

[Sallyjane]

I have found the assistance given on the forum extremely helpful and often thought provoking, and it's helping me to build a picture of Private Stephen D Morris' service in Welch #45356 / Cheshire #52753

A summary of my findings so far is below, the most recent and significant one is his involvement in the Battle of Messines. However, there are a couple of questions I wondered if anyone could help me with?

Timeline:

·       9/12/1915 – Enlisted in Porth – Attested to Army Reserve

·       9/2/1916 – mobilized

·       23/3/1916 – Posted Welch 21^st (#45356)

·       28/6/1916 – Posted – BEF(?) with 13^th Battalion, Welsh Regiment (served in France)

·       1/9/1916 – transferred into Cheshire 11^th Battalion (#52753)

·       8/6/1917 – died of wounds received in action

Source: Statement of Service

Recent additional information:

·       1/9/1916 - in France attached to 7Brigade, 25^th Division

·       31/10/1916 – Division moved to the Ploegsteert Sector and took part in the opening of the Paschendale Offensive, the Battle of Messines.

·       Date unknown – wounded at Messines

·       8/6/1917 – died of wounds at 53 Casualty Clearing Centre, Bailleul, France

Source: West Wales Memorial Project (www.ww1.wales)

I have found info about the Battle of Messines in ‘The Long, Long Trail’ and Wikipedia which gives me some idea of the movements of 25^th Division during this battle.

I do have a few questions in my mind and I wondered if anyone could answer them?

·       Where and what would his training have been like when he joined on 9 Dec 1915?

·       Does ‘mobilized’ mean this was when he went to France?

·       What would he have been doing prior to posting to France on 28/6?

·       What was the 13^th Battalion, Welsh Regiment doing between 28/6-1/9/1916? Were they engaged in any battles or doing other activities?

·       What would the 11^th Battalion, Cheshire Regiment have been doing between 1/9-31/10/1916?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

SJ

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

It might perhaps have meant that he was in need of a trustee/nominee to handle his affairs in 1939 ???

:-) M

Good point - I believe he had some mental health issues so that could explain it.

[Matlock1418]

 

22 minutes ago, Sallyjane said:

·       9/12/1915 – Enlisted in Porth – Attested to Army Reserve

·       9/2/1916 – mobilized

·       23/3/1916 – Posted Welch 21^st (#45356)

·       28/6/1916 – Posted – BEF(?) with 13^th Battalion, Welsh Regiment (served in France)

·       1/9/1916 – transferred into Cheshire 11^th Battalion (#52753)

 

14 minutes ago, Sallyjane said:

Does ‘mobilized’ mean this was when he went to France?

 

Not really my field -  however, in my opinion:

Attested - Signed up - commonly men were nominally assigned to a unit but quite frequently essentially went home and waited [but not always]

Mobilised [assuming no previous service] = required to turn up for training

Posted / transferred = sent to a specific unit.

 

Obviously somewhere before going to France he had squeeze in getting trained!

 

24 minutes ago, Sallyjane said:

I believe he had some mental health issues so that could explain it.

Sadly getting older was then, as now, commonly not always a joy [except perhaps with fewer state aids, so likely worse :-( - so probably thank heavens for his family's support]

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

Sallyjane,

A bit more info for you - His entry in the Register of Soldiers' Effects - most specifically shows the money he was owed/had on his account and the War Gratuity he had earned to the time of his death, and when they were paid out to his father.

Image courtesy of Ancestry

:-) M

[Sallyjane]

17 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

 

 

Not really my field -  however, in my opinion:

Attested - Signed up - commonly men were nominally assigned to a unit but quite frequently essentially went home and waited [but not always]

Mobilised [assuming no previous service] = required to turn up for training

Posted / transferred = sent to a specific unit.

 

Obviously somewhere before going to France he had squeeze in getting trained!

 

Sadly getting older was then, as now, commonly not always a joy [except perhaps with fewer state aids, so likely worse :-( - so probably thank heavens for his family's support]

:-) M

Thanks as always.
I agree - it was good to have family support for Richard. Mental health wasn't such a recognised issue then.

SJ

7 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sallyjane,

A bit more info for you - His entry in the Register of Soldiers' Effects - most specifically shows the money he was owed/had on his account and the War Gratuity he had earned to the time of his death, and when they were paid out to his father.

Image courtesy of Ancestry

:-) M

This is great! Thank you.
How do you access all this amazing information?!

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, Sallyjane said:

How do you access all this amazing information?!

Magic!  Pure magic!!  ;-)

Actually - not really.

Experience and knowledge of members, commonly with specialist but interlinking interests, plays a big /huge part in the sheer cumulative genius of GWF.  :-)

And lot is out there for free - e.g. MIC from the National Archives [in bw] - And even from normally pay subscription sites - certain items such as MIC [in colour] can be obtained via a free registration.

Also at present, thanks to Covid [never thought I would say that!], many local libraries that have subscriptions to Ancestry and Find My Past have opened up their access for members so rather than just in-library access there is remote access too - for the time being anyway.

The National Archives are also offering free download of many documents you had to pay for previously, such as War Diaries - at present.  You just need a free registration with them.

There is much other free info out there - such as Births & Deaths searches at GRO or at low cost e.g. Soldiers' Wills and Probate at the Probate Office.  Then in some cases other stuff may come up at the London Gazette. Etc., etc.

Etc. lots of other places thanks to the web.  But GWF often brings them together and into the light.

And of course there is the Long Long trail - link at the top of the forum screen.  Lots of info on how to research men and units/ battles etc.

And many members pay for subscription services, of which there are many, too.

I will give one small final plug = for the Western Front Association - as thanks to them the pension index cards were saved, and then so usefully made them available to us to unlock many a mystery [in conjunction with Fold3] https://www.westernfrontassociation.com Membership of WFA is really quite inexpensive [£29pa] for access to pension records and of course WFA has many other benefits and other access to a range of interesting materials = recommended.

:-) M

[BillyH]

On 24/06/2021 at 23:03, Sallyjane said:

What would the 11^th Battalion, Cheshire Regiment have been doing between 1/9-31/10/1916?

War Diary available to download free if you register with National Archives. Or PM me.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353385

BillyH.