called up from reserves at the outbreak of the war

[Alan24]

2 hours ago, robbie56 said:

The question that I have is as to whether he expected to be sent on active service or to be retained for training purposes in the U.K. Is it possible that he was given the choice to proceed to France or remain in UK ? He was 43 years old when wounded at Loos.

He could have well signed up for Home Service but when the time came for his battalion to go overseas changed his mind and wanted to go out with his men.

 

The CSM in the correspondence below did just that. He was 36 years old and had served 12 Years with the colours, including service in the Boer War. He was discharged in 1905 and re enlisted in 1915. Unfortunately he was wounded on the first day of contact with the enemy. Having recovered at Home, was killed just a few weeks after re-joining his battalion in the field.

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 October , 2020 by Alan24

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

He could have well signed up for Home Service but when the time came for his battalion to go overseas changed his mind and wanted to go out with his men.

 

The CSM in the correspondence below did just that. He was 36 years old and had served 12 Years with the colours, including service in the Boer War. He was discharged in 1905 and re enlisted in 1915. Unfortunately he was wounded on the first day of contact with the enemy. Having recovered at Home, was killed just a few weeks after re-joining his battalion in the field.

 

Yes, I think it was more common and less unusual for men who had completed shorter engagements, Alan.  I was referring more to those who had completed a full career and so were aged 40 plus.

[robbie56]

Many thanks for the article and information. I had always assumed that the war needed men and he had no choice. Now it would appear I was probably wrong and more than likely he chose his course of action. In a way that explains the background to some of his letters in my possession. There’s also a suggestion in the same letters that he felt a strong responsibility towards the young men he helped train. I suspect In many cases he was old enough to be their father.

A letter states that he was wounded by machinegun fire coming from towards the north of the redoubt whilst approximately halfway between the front of the redoubt and the main trench just behind. He died a year later due to complications, gangrene I believe.

Having previously completed 21 years service (followed by a gap of just over two years as a civilian before being re-engaged) would a pension be payable to his wife on his death In 1916 or indeed Immediately at the end of the 21 year period in 1912 ?

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

Many thanks for the article and information. I had always assumed that the war needed men and he had no choice. Now it would appear I was probably wrong and more than likely he chose his course of action. In a way that explains the background to some of his letters in my possession. There’s also a suggestion in the same letters that he felt a strong responsibility towards the young men he helped train. I suspect In many cases he was old enough to be their father.

A letter states that he was wounded by machinegun fire coming from towards the north of the redoubt whilst approximately halfway between the front of the redoubt and the main trench just behind. He died a year later due to complications, gangrene I believe.

Having previously completed 21 years service (followed by a gap of just over two years as a civilian before being re-engaged) would a pension be payable to his wife on his death In 1916 or indeed Immediately at the end of the 21 year period in 1912 ?

 

21-years was the reckonable service necessary for a full and immediate pension and his additional service would have been added.  We know that he cannot have 'lost' any service though misconduct given the comments on his discharge certificate, where his sobriety and good behaviour was mentioned.  On that basis there should be a widow's pension recorded somewhere.

Edited 4 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

Thanks for the pension information, that maybe helps to look at the situation then from a slightly different angle. One last subjective question - would a twenty one year Colour Sergeant plus a two year CSM military pension from say 1915 onwards been sufficient to look after a widow and five children ?
Interestingly he was treated at a hospital in Aldershot but died in Perth. He was buried with full military honours and has a CWGC headstone in the north of Scotland, a long way from his home in Huntingdonshire.

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

Thanks for the pension information, that maybe helps to look at the situation then from a slightly different angle. One last subjective question - would a twenty one year Colour Sergeant plus a two year CSM military pension from say 1915 onwards been sufficient to look after a widow and five children ?
Interestingly he was treated at a hospital in Aldershot but died in Perth. He was buried with full military honours and has a CWGC headstone in the north of Scotland, a long way from his home in Huntingdonshire.

 

By the standards of the day, when occupational pensions were still intended more as either, a supplement to further income gained whilst the recipient was still capable of working, or just enough to keep the wolves from the door, it was relatively generous (bear in mind that but few lived to earn it and even fewer long enough to receive it for more than a few years).  Britain was still very far from the cradle-to-grave welfare state that it has become when considered in comparison with then.

Edited 4 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

8 hours ago, Alan24 said:

This may interest some.

From a book on Lost Gardens of Heligan, Cornwall.

 

This suggests that they were called out on Sunday 2nd Aug.

 

I suspect many of these men ended up in the RND.

 

With regard to navy men of the reserves, there is a thread on here that mentions Churchill mobilised them on 2 August 1914. I think there was some declaration by the King. The upshot is that whilst the Army had men who left as Time Expired prior to the 1916 Military Service Act, the time served rule no longer applied to naval reservists. It's a deviation from the original post, but I will try to find said thread, and will PM you a link to it.

[Alan24]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

With regard to navy men of the reserves, there is a thread on here that mentions Churchill mobilised them on 2 August 1914.

Maybe the threat from the sea,  initially, was perceived to be greater than that from a land army.

[Keith_history_buff]

  

On 14/10/2020 at 14:11, Muerrisch said:

• The whole point of the SR was that the Militia were not readily available to fight in the Boer War and the SR was immediately available either as drafts or formed bodies. On Mobilization they were to deploy from the Depot to vacated Regular Barracks on Declaration.
• ·       The Special Reserve was part of the Army First Class Reserve, which comprised Sections A, B, D and the SR.
•        Infantry reserve battalions will on mobilisation take over the surplus reservists and men left behind by the regular battalion. (Regulations for the Special Reserve 1911 paragraph 2

 

 

Both (1) men engaged under Special Reserve terms of service, and (2) men engaged as regulars who had completed service with the colours and were continuing the remainder of their Time in the Army Reserve are mentioned in the thread from whence the aforementioned is quoted from

 

[brianmorris547]

On 26/09/2020 at 15:18, RaySearching said:

Called up from reserves at the outbreak of the war

How was it achieved

 

I had always assumed  that a brown envelope would drop on the floor of the last known address of the reservist

telling him to report at such and such a place on a given date

 

would I be correct in this assumption 

 

Ray

 

On 26/09/2020 at 15:31, ss002d6252 said:

That's correct - the mobilization regs required that there be a mobilization scheme kept ready and records had to maintain mobilization forms for each reservist. The reservist was required to keep the unit updated with his address.

 

Just the other day I came across a copy in a service record. I was going to save a copy but forgot !

Craig

Ray/Craig

I found a Notice in the Pension Record of 1155 later 710364 Alfred Wallwork of 1/3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (TF). He had enlisted into the Bolton Artillery on 26/02/1914. The Officer who signed him on was B Palin Dobson who later wrote the Official History of the BA. Orders for all three Bolton TF Units were also published on a weekly basis in the local papers.

Brian

Edited 29 October , 2020 by brianmorris547
typo

[ss002d6252]

On 04/10/2020 at 15:48, robbie56 said:

Thanks for the pension information, that maybe helps to look at the situation then from a slightly different angle. One last subjective question - would a twenty one year Colour Sergeant plus a two year CSM military pension from say 1915 onwards been sufficient to look after a widow and five children ?
Interestingly he was treated at a hospital in Aldershot but died in Perth. He was buried with full military honours and has a CWGC headstone in the north of Scotland, a long way from his home in Huntingdonshire.

Their widow's pension was 36s 3d per week - https://www.fold3.com/image/668560884?terms=1019,3958,dean

It would be around the average wage in 1917 - https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1919/aug/01/wages-1914-and-1919

 

Craig

[robbie56]

Craig, Many thanks for the pension information, much appreciated. It would seem that her pension was liveable and indeed much better than I thought and that’s a good thing.
Attached is a photograph of them taken just before he left for France.

Again thanks for taking the time.

R

[Keith_history_buff]

John Kent is another example of an old soldier who reenlisted with his old regiment after the outbreak of hostilities. Enlisted under Special Reserve terms of service on 22 Oct 1914 in the South Wales Borderers, 15053. Disembarked in France on 9 Feb 1915 to join 1st Battalion. Transferred to the 2nd Garrison Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 38078, in late 1915. Medically discharged on 21 Sep 1918. Issued a SWB, number B14921.

He does not have surviving details for his WW1 service, but his prior service is documented, and is available via FindMyPast, among the other "burnt records" of the WO 363 series of WW1 service records.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=101&firstname=john&firstname_variants=true&lastname=kent&regiment=south+wales+borderers&soldiernumber=swb%2f2202&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain

He completed his form on 5 February 1896, and was transferred the next day to the Army Reserve.

Form D 422 Transfer to the Army Reserve before the expiration of Colour Service.
Image courtesy of Ancestry

[Keith_history_buff]

He broke two cardinal rules upon transferring to the Army Reserve.

Firstly, he reenlisted in the army, and failed to inform the recruiter that he was still serving in the Army Reserve. By receiving Army Reserve payments, as well as his ongoing payments for his colour service, he was looking to make a quick buck.

There is the following recorded on his statement of service, dated 4 August 1896.

'Convicted by DCM of making a false answer on attestation & sentenced to 84 days imprisonment & hard labour. Relegated from R.A.'

He had attested as W Thompson, 3734, Gunner, 2 Depot Coy Southern Division, Royal Artillery on 19 May 1896.

Images courtesy FindMyPast

[Keith_history_buff]

The second cardinal rule that he broke was that he was not submitting his quarterly returns. I did not understand this, until I revisited this thread.

On 27/12/2016 at 19:24, Muerrisch said:

In 1910 the average British farm labourers' wages were 15/ 4- [15 shillings and 4 pence] per week. 

The army reservist was on at least 3/6- per week, a not inconsiderable addition to any wages. It was paid quarterly.

 

If a man was out of work, the reserve pay would not keep him; if he was in work, it was not to be sneezed at.

It was not enough for John Kent to live off, and he appears to have struggled to have found work. In desperation, he went to sea as a stoker/fireman. This was to cause issues.

On 30/11/2015 at 11:43, Muerrisch said:

regarding the issue of Reserve pay quarterly:

The Officer in Charge of Records and the Paymaster of the Regimental District required reservists to submit a “Life Certificate”, Army Form D 462, quarterly, as proof that they were indeed alive. Poor people moved rented house very often, so the certificate gave an up-to-date address to which to send correspondence. Each soldier held a rail warrant to ensure that he had the means to report on mobilisation or as required. If he were to be recalled, he would retain any substantive rank and good conduct badges.

Clearly the soldier would be in serious trouble if he failed to report for his brief refresher if summoned. Never in my fairly extensive reading have I found record of any such summoning. Has anyone else, please?

 

I am very sorry for missing my army reserve pay i was so long out of work that i did not know what to do but i have been going to sea as a fireman and i forgot to send for Cert. but i hope you will be

Image courtesy Ancestry

[Keith_history_buff]

Form D 462 Form of Life Certificate

Image courtesy FindMyPast

Form D 443 Form of certificate of absence of a man of the Army Reserve

Image courtesy Ancestry

[Muerrisch]

Thank you: I had never seen a Life Certificate before.

A valuable contribution for those of us who like to shine a light in dark corners!

[Keith_history_buff]

I'm glad you found it interesting. I've never seen one before, nor the form for formally documenting him as a "goneaway". I guess these documents were weeded from the WO 97 series of files kept by RHC, and this duplicate file was due to be destroyed in 1948 but was never weeded by the clerks and then WW2 changed everything. 

[Muerrisch]

Keith, regarding

Transfer to the Army Reserve before the expiration of Colour Service.

This was a mechanism used by the War Office to regulate supply and demand. In essence, soldiers would be offered transfer to the reserve to bleed off some vacancies so that  fully trained  new enlistments could  be absorbed into the rigid overseas Establishments. My reading is that this was mainly applied in India.

I also believe there was a cash incentive paid to do an early runner .............. a soldier on the reserve cost half a 20 year-old kicking his heels in British barracks.

One recruiting  adjustment mechanism was height/ weight criteria, frequently altered. A more crude and violent one was adjusting the 7 / 5 ratio for colour/reserve of course, but sharp changes post-Boer War caused wild fluctuations.

I expect that you know all this, but others might not.

[Keith_history_buff]

Thanks for the reminder. There is a group of regulars being induced to transfer early to the Army Reserve from 1st Battalion South Wales Borderers at Chatham. This is taking place in July 1911, some of those may well have the Form D 422 on their file, to document this. It looked like a precursor to redundancy, and some kind of book-balancing exercise, but I had not tried to look further into it. (A similar axing took place in autumn 2023 in the UK Civil Service, the rationale being expenditure savings prior to the announcement of the subsequent general election, rather than a bevy of young men to be sent to the overseas battalion.)

For 2202 John Kent, he had signed up for 7 & 5, I'd have to look at his file to see the circumstances whereby he was serving longer. If I remember rightly, I think he may have had permission to serve to 12 years.